Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Shazeep,:

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

[mfblume]

Scripture showing Paul considered himself saved when he wrote the following words:

1Co 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2Ti 1:9 KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So, tell me again the bible does not say we can know we are saved and explain how that is so using this scripture.

[mfblume]

bump

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Shazeep,:

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Shazeep,:

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

look, an understanding of this verse is great, but you have accepted a definition of it given to you, and now great swaths of other Scripture are ignored in the name of doctrine in order to condemn others. Didn't revealing Love in every other doctrinal verse you have quoted at me teach you anything? So, ok, let's take a look at this verse then:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It is God's will that all might be saved. Can you point to any instances of
God's will being thwarted? Can you even define saved for anyone other than yourself? I know you think you can, but when pressed you didn't do so well there, did you? When you can answer how women might be saved in childbirth then you can trust a little more in your understanding of "saved," ok? Why "might?"

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed. And you are nothing if not technical, so i'm done. But you basically have the same issue with this verse, that your definition of "believe" is a construct, which we have already examined, and we already know that millions of people claim to believe--are you saying they are saved now? Because reading this verse in a vacuum suggests that they are, does it not?

So how then do all Catholics become lost? I don't get it. Of course, the answer is that God can make believers from rocks, and satan also believes, and it is those who do the right thing that are righteous, and the real believers. Now all this is off the cuff, and since i'm here i'll say that this is likely worded this way so that anyone who is a hater can seize upon it and use it against everyone who does not "believe" like them, thus revealing their hearts.

i see a reflection in "you will contend with them" paraphrased, maybe its "they will contend with you," @ "Ishmael" in Scripture--why would God provide a contender? Because you want to contend, not because contention of this sort is a good thing. Contend for the faith! But that likely means something different for you, i guess...so be it. your heart will be revealed, and you will reap what you sow.

Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. If you know this, what is the point of attacking anyone who does not understand or agree with your doctrine? Or defending against them, or whatever--exhibiting the signs of fear? If the war on drugs brought more drugs, the war on poverty made us all poorer, and the war on Afghanistan results in the Taliban controlling more territory than ever, how do expect the war on Muslims to be any different?

Could you please just admit that you believe saying "All Muslims are lost" has nothing to do with our governments unilateral actions in the Mideast right now, so i can call you stupid and move on?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

look, an understanding of this verse is great, but you have accepted a definition of it given to you, and now great swaths of other Scripture are ignored in the name of doctrine in order to condemn others.

I know you think that way. Yada yada yada. That's aside from the point. That's why I am asking you for YOUR thoughts on the passage and how it affects salvation or not. You are dodging again.

Didn't revealing Love in every other doctrinal verse you have quoted at me teach you anything? So, ok, let's take a look at this verse then:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It is God's will that all might be saved. Can you point to any instances of
God's will being thwarted? Can you even define saved for anyone other than yourself?

Again, aside from the point., The point is WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS and how you make your conclusions based on this passage. I know it's hard, since you have a vendetta against me. But please try to focus. What are YOUR thoughts apart from any reference to me or mine?

I know you think you can, but when pressed you didn't do so well there, did you? When you can answer how women might be saved in childbirth then you can trust a little more in your understanding of "saved," ok? Why "might?"

I was not even sure what you were asking. I can deal with that then. But first things fist. Stop referring to me, stop being personal, and show what YOU get from these passages.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed.

Can't stay away from me, can you>

And you are nothing if not technical, so i'm done.

lol

See? Dodge dodge dodge. You cannto deal with a passage in itself.

[quote] But you basically have the same issue with this verse, that your definition of "believe" is a construct, [/quote\]

I am not asking for your thoughts of my beliefs. I know them too well. lol

Just tell me YOUR beliefs and how these verses affect your thoughts/

which we have already examined, and we already know that millions of people claim to believe--are you saying they are saved now? Because reading this verse in a vacuum suggests that they are, does it not?

So how then do all Catholics become lost? I don't get it. Of course, the answer is that God can make believers from rocks, and satan also believes, and it is those who do the right thing that are righteous, and the real believers. Now all this is off the cuff, and since i'm here i'll say that this is likely worded this way so that anyone who is a hater can seize upon it and use it against everyone who does not "believe" like them, thus revealing their hearts.

Ah, the old God deceives people with His word, trick.

Again, I know you got a weird way of thinking of the word. But tell me what this verse does to your thoughts and how it forms your conclusions about who is saved and lost. And why.

i see a reflection in "you will contend with them" paraphrased, maybe its "they will contend with you," @ "Ishmael" in Scripture--why would God provide a contender? Because you want to contend, not because contention of this sort is a good thing. Contend for the faith! But that likely means something different for you, i guess...so be it. your heart will be revealed, and you will reap what you sow.

You really cannot talk bible, can you? You have to attack me in every moment you get. All I asked was YOUR opinion and how YOUR faith forms from this passage. But it's MIKE BLUME MIKE BLUME MIKE BLUME.

Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. If you know this, what is the point of attacking anyone who does not understand or agree with your doctrine? Or defending against them, or whatever--exhibiting the signs of fear? If the war on drugs brought more drugs, the war on poverty made us all poorer, and the war on Afghanistan results in the Taliban controlling more territory than ever, how do expect the war on Muslims to be any different?

Aside from the point. WHat do these verses say to YOUR faith?

Could you please just admit that you believe saying "All Muslims are lost" has nothing to do with our governments unilateral actions in the Mideast right now, so i can call you stupid and move on?

Wow. Could not take this single post and deal with actual bible, but you just HAVE TO make it about me.

Wow,