Law was an impossible system to keep

[shazeep]

But Adam CHOSE to sin

what has changed, one wonders

[shazeep]

[mfblume]

I think the focus of the discussion needs to get to the core differences, rather than all the nuances involved. Paul was amazing in analyzing his situation and walking us through the reasoning behind his understanding of law and grace.

Rom 7:18....For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
... for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

That single verse says it all!

Paul discovered through somewhat scientific means that sin dwelt within his flesh. He analyzed his situation as to why, when he tried doing the good deeds of the good law, that he always committed sin instead. The Law was, as it were, slaying him instead of causing him to do good. He looked at his efforts and looked at his failure and discovered there was a law just as Newton discovered the law of gravity.

Everywhere you drop an apple, whether in Germany, Japan or Iceland, it will fall. This means there is a law at work here. A principle. A law is a way things react whenever in the same circumstances. It happens everytime! And it works everywhere! The law of gravity.

Similarly, Paul discovered that everytime he willed to do good, he sinned instead. It became a new Law or principle to him. (Romans. 7:21).

This led him to understand that it was not himself that was inherently evil, since he desired to do good (Romans. 7:15-19). It was not a matter of choice to him.

He, himself, consented that the law was good. He did not willingly rebel against it. He wanted to obey it. Therefore, the reason he was not obeying it could not possibly be that he was rebelling against it. The problem was not his will or choice. The only conclusion Paul could draw was that something was in him. It was separate from him in the sense that it was not inherently him, but it was in him.

And since Paul found that this reaction of evil acts always took place when he exerted his flesh or self effort to do good works, he narrowed the thing down to discover its identity. Whatever it was, it worked when "he", himself in his own will power and self-exertion of the flesh, was motivated to work. That act of resorting to himself through the power of his flesh in order to do good was the culprit behind getting this alien element within him to rise up and make him do evil. Therefore, it had to be in his "flesh."

Narrowing it down further he realized that the flesh contained something. It was certainly not a "good" thing as the Law was "good". It might cause some to think the Law was bad, since trying to keep the Law seemed to always cause this evil to occur. But the Law was certainly not bad (Romans. 7:7). But that something in his flesh certainly was bad and not good at all.


"For I know that in my me (That is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." (Romans. 7:18).

This is most scientific in a very spiritual manner! He called that something in his flesh by the name of "sin". And since he realized that exerting his flesh to work only stirred "sin" up, he had better find a different way in which to see the good deeds come forth through him. All he could think of was to call on God to deliver him from the flesh which held that sin! And that was exactly the answer!! (Romans. 7:24).

He realized that he, himself, delighted in the Law. But another law existed which he then discovered. And that Law warred against the good law that was in his mind, which he willed to obey. And this newly discovered law was actually bringing him into captivity to the Principle of sin.

When He called on God for help, God delivered him through Jesus Christ's death on the cross. Its as though we died to be free of the old cruel husband, since he wasn't going to die (Romans. 7:2-4). And we died, but yet lived on to enjoy the freedom from the old man that our deaths provided. How can this be? Well, we died by faith, believing that Christ died instead us.

So, Paul said God delivered him in Romans. 7:25.

And another Law that existed, which he then found to be the answer, was the reality of the effort to believe and thus walk after the strength of the Spirit rather than the strength of the flesh. And so long as we rely upon God to deliver us through faith in the fact that we died with Christ, we remain above the law of sin and death above that newly discovered law that explained why he could not do good. We must continually realize that we need to rely upon God's Spirit to keep us above sin, and not rely upon our weak human power of self effort to stop sinning.

As much as the law of aerodynamics teaches us that our presence in a certain shaped vehicle that is operating a certain way will keep us above the law of gravity and thus cheat the law of gravity, we can cheat the law of sin and death. And this higher law, the law that cheat sin and death, is called the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. We must be in Christ as much as one would need to be in an airplane to escape the law of gravity. And we are in Christ by having faith in His death for us! And that is what we must understand when we pray and close our prayers saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ."

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you are dealing with the passages that support you, but not with those that oppose you, tho. Do you just avoid reading Job then, or what?

Maybe this was already addressed, as I haven't read every page, but, as you keep bringing up Job, I submit the following about Job:

Job was not a Jew, and was not part of the Sinai Covenant given to Israel through Moses. As such, his life was not governed by the Torah as revealed in the Pentateuch.

His ability, therefore, to be righteous, or not, was not determined by the keeping of the ordinances revealed in the Mosaic Law.

His was a law of the conscience, as Romans 2:14 shows:

14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Maybe this was already addressed, as I haven't read every page, but, as you keep bringing up Job, I submit the following about Job:

Job was not a Jew, and was not part of the Sinai Covenant given to Israel through Moses. As such, his life was not governed by the Torah as revealed in the Pentateuch.

His ability, therefore, to be righteous, or not, was not determined by the keeping of the ordinances revealed in the Mosaic Law.

His was a law of the conscience, as Romans 2:14 shows:

nice, i am persuaded to agree. I was abusing Job for a different argument, because he is termed a 'righteous man' in Scripture, when we--or i anyway--have since realized how the argument is moot. Reflecting upon exactly when his story is placed in the Bible though, so inspired!

Why do you think God punished Job, VS?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Maybe this was already addressed, as I haven't read every page, but, as you keep bringing up Job, I submit the following about Job:

Job was not a Jew, and was not part of the Sinai Covenant given to Israel through Moses. As such, his life was not governed by the Torah as revealed in the Pentateuch.

His ability, therefore, to be righteous, or not, was not determined by the keeping of the ordinances revealed in the Mosaic Law.

His was a law of the conscience, as Romans 2:14 shows:

I noted the same thing about Job in another thread. Law is for those under law. And sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[shazeep]

the problem with that argument imo is that Job was sacrificing, for his children, etc, ergo he was following law, or so it seems to me.

[mfblume]

The key to this is not to think avoidance of lawkeeping means we can break laws and sin. It's just the MEANS of accomplishing the same END of righteous living above sin that lawkeeping was purposed to accomplish is fulfilled without lawkeeping. The Spirit in us is leaned upon to empower us to serve God. And the Spirit does not cause one to sin. Hence, the letter to the Galatians contrasts lawkeeping with grace and says there is no law against the fruit of grace. That does not mean we do not count sin as sin if we do commit sin. It simply means the results of Spirit empowerment are nothing the law of God forbids. The results of living by the Spirit is a life that does not commit sin. And it is only so long as one walks after the Spirit. The moment one ceases to do that, sins will occur again in one's life.

[mfblume]

Paul laid out the experience of someone who does not follow after the Spirit, whether they know how to do so or not. I think most simply don't know how to do so. To follow after the Spirit is to LIVE, he said in Romans 8:13.

He said that the Law was ordained to life.

Romans 7:9-10 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

He got that idea of law allegedly causing us to live from Moses:

Leviticus 18:5 KJV Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

So, he would DIE when he tried keeping Law. And THAT IS EXACTLY what he said happens when we "life after the flesh."

Romans 8:8 KJV So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:...

Again, we must stress, HE GENUINELY WILLED TO OBEY THE LAW.

Romans 7:14-19 KJV For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He wanted to keep the law, and proved it by saying the good he willed to do was not accomplished. The evil he DID NOT WANT TO DO ("which I would not") was that which he could not help himself from doing.

So, how can lawkeeping be possible when a person WILLS to obey it, and try as he might, he cannot do so, and instead finds evil resulting in his actions?

And whereas he said he found law to cause death in Romans 7, by seemingly stirring up sin within himself to activity, resulting in sin barging in on his life and compelling him to commit evil, he said the Spirit of God in us can cause us to LIVE in Romans 8.

Can someone who feels we're reading this incorrectly help us out here? What are we missing in context?

Paul did not say the life Moses promised comes by merely willing to obey the law and carrying it out. Paul said he tried that, and his will was present inside him, but the "HOW TO" perform that which he willed to do was MISSING!

Then he said, the Spirit of God is able to MORTIFY the deeds of the body that formerly slew him, so HE COULD LIVE! That is the key to living above sin. Not lawkeeping, as far as I can tell from the context.

Compare:

Romans 7:9-10 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

WITH:

Romans 8:6 KJV For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:10 KJV And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I will say that 8:10-11 are interpreted in a wide range of varying ways.

[mfblume]

Votivesoul, any thoughts?