Law was an impossible system to keep

[mfblume]

Votivesoul, any thoughts?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Votivesoul, any thoughts?

I will have to play some major catch up, as I haven't been able to really get into this thread yet. Hopefully I can do so soon.

[mfblume]

Law was definitely considered destructive as far as Paul was concerned. Not because it commanded bad things. He agreed all that it commanded was right and proper things to live. He did not imply, nor do I believe, the things law commanded should be violated. But the manner in which laws are carried out is what cannot be fulfilled. To command someone "THOU SHALT NOT" only stirs sin up in the person. I think the simplest way to explain it, that likely doesn't cover all the nuances involved, is that our instinct is to say, "No, I will!"

The point is sin resides in our flesh like a force. And that sin makes it impossible for us to keep law consistently. And I say consistently in the sense that we can obey it only for so long. And at some point WE WILL FAIL.

[mfblume]

SIN AS A FORCE:

Rom 6:12....Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14....For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:8-9....But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. ..(9)....For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:11....For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:13-21....Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. ..(14)....For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. ..(15)....For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. ..(16)....If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. ..(17)....Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ..(18)....For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. ..(19)....For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. ..(20)....Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ..(21)....I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

[mfblume]

Esaias,

Any more thoughts on the will power Paul noted in Romans 7? Like to hear your thoughts on some of my thoughts and the scriptures I presented.

Blessings!

[mfblume]

Esaias! Where are you?!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esaias,

Any more thoughts on the will power Paul noted in Romans 7? Like to hear your thoughts on some of my thoughts and the scriptures I presented.

Blessings!

'Will power' is not in chapter 7. 'Will' however is. I think we are using the term 'will' in different ways. Will can mean the faculty or ability to choose one thing over another, it can mean the faculty of volition (whether free or not) by which one engages in a course of action, or it can mean an amount of 'effort' exerted by determination against contrary motives ('quit smoking by sheer willpower' means one does not use additional aids to counter enticements or urges to smoke, other than their own determination not to smoke, for example), or it can mean to desire something.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Rom 7:18 οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

θέλειν
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]). - Strong's.

thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb - Thayer's.

As we can see, the word has a range of meanings, to be determined by context and usage.

According to the verse, and the other usages in the chapter, it is clear that 'to will' refers to 'desire or wish, to love, to like to do, be fond of doing, take delight in'. He says to will to good is with him, that is, he desires, wants, wishes, to do good. But how to actually accomplish that desire he does not know. From this we can see that 'to will' does NOT mean 'to choose' as an act of volition, because when one actually chooses a course of action they embark on it, they do it, because the choosing and the doing are the exact same thing.

But, we often say 'I choose ABC' when we actually do not, what we really mean is 'I wish ABC or I want ABC'. A person may say 'I will to eat cheesecake' but they do not eat cheesecake because they are concerned about their girlish figure. So they do not actually WILL it, that is, they do not actually CHOOSE to eat cheesecake, they simply desire to eat it, while also desiring NOT to eat it (or at least desiring not to suffer the fattening consequences of eating it).

When understood in this light, the entire premise that Paul is contrasting 'will power' with 'supernatural divine aid' falls apart. The contrast is between mere desire for something, and actually doing it. Which Paul identifies in the next chapter when he says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh, and that this is the result of the death of Christ. Christ's death is what causes people to actually obey God. Thus, righteousness as a lifestyle is said to be imparted from God to man, it is the power of God working in a person both to will and to do His good pleasure.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

'Will power' is not in chapter 7. 'Will' however is. I think we are using the term 'will' in different ways. Will can mean the faculty or ability to choose one thing over another, it can mean the faculty of volition (whether free or not) by which one engages in a course of action, or it can mean an amount of 'effort' exerted by determination against contrary motives ('quit smoking by sheer willpower' means one does not use additional aids to counter enticements or urges to smoke, other than their own determination not to smoke, for example), or it can mean to desire something.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Rom 7:18 οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

θέλειν
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]). - Strong's.

thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb - Thayer's.

As we can see, the word has a range of meanings, to be determined by context and usage.

According to the verse, and the other usages in the chapter, it is clear that 'to will' refers to 'desire or wish, to love, to like to do, be fond of doing, take delight in'. He says to will to good is with him, that is, he desires, wants, wishes, to do good. But how to actually accomplish that desire he does not know. From this we can see that 'to will' does NOT mean 'to choose' as an act of volition, because when one actually chooses a course of action they embark on it, they do it, because the choosing and the doing are the exact same thing.

But, we often say 'I choose ABC' when we actually do not, what we really mean is 'I wish ABC or I want ABC'. A person may say 'I will to eat cheesecake' but they do not eat cheesecake because they are concerned about their girlish figure. So they do not actually WILL it, that is, they do not actually CHOOSE to eat cheesecake, they simply desire to eat it, while also desiring NOT to eat it (or at least desiring not to suffer the fattening consequences of eating it).

When understood in this light, the entire premise that Paul is contrasting 'will power' with 'supernatural divine aid' falls apart. The contrast is between mere desire for something, and actually doing it. Which Paul identifies in the next chapter when he says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh, and that this is the result of the death of Christ. Christ's death is what causes people to actually obey God. Thus, righteousness as a lifestyle is said to be imparted from God to man, it is the power of God working in a person both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Very good.

Have we ever met?