Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Reincarnation is error:

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Job 14:10-12 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

Psalm 78:39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

John 3:1-36 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ...

Job 7:9-10 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.

Job 16:22 For when a few years have come I shall go the way from which I shall not return.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Job 10:21 Before I go—and I shall not return— to the land of darkness and deep shadow,

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

John 9:1-3 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 1:17 And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Antipas

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

How can someone possibly convince a person they're wrong, when they flat out refuse to accept the Word of God as the final authority?

I fear for your soul, Antipas. You've obviously allowed yourself to become deceived by the vain traditions of this world. Jesus is the only way to God. Period, full stop, end of story. If you fail to recognize and accept this, you'll find out personally that your beliefs have only led you to hell.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Jito463

How can someone possibly convince a person they're wrong, when they flat out refuse to accept the Word of God as the final authority?

I fear for your soul, Antipas. You've obviously allowed yourself to become deceived by the vain traditions of this world. Jesus is the only way to God. Period, full stop, end of story. If you fail to recognize and accept this, you'll find out personally that your beliefs have only led you to hell.

I am aware of many mythological expressions, misinterpretations, and contradictions in the Bible. While I believe that the Bible is "inspired", I do not set it on a pedestal of being inerrant or even complete. I see placing the Bible on such a pedestal as being close to idolatry. The only thing that is inerrant and without flaw is God himself. Obviously the Bible can't be the test of what is "Christian". After all, there are over 41,000 denominations of Christianity and even more interpretations of various doctrines. So, even if we were to say that the Bible is inerrant, obviously the inerrant text isn't easily understood. I settle with accepting the Bible as an inspired work filled with human limitations that are the natural outcome of truth being revealed to flawed human filters. I think this is by design. If the Bible were absolutely perfect.... we'd worship it. Acknowledging the Bible's flaws and limitations keeps us looking Godward for our ultimate salvation instead of gazing into a dusty book rife with errors and inconsistencies that barely anyone understands. Believers in it squabble over almost daily. Those who believe in the Bible's inerrancy seem to never agree on it anyway. They are a mess of confusion and debate. Any observer can only walk away shaking their head hoping Bible believers find God.

I do accept Jesus as being God incarnate. I accept Christ's work and teaching. However, I also believe that this same God has been manifest throughout history in various cultures and is the Source behind the core of most religions today. In other words, my Jesus is so much bigger than the small sectarian Jesus of one denomination of Christianity.

If over 41,000 divisions can exist within Christianity alone due to limited and imperfect human understandings, imagine the divisions and misunderstandings that could exist between vastly different cultures, languages, and geographic regions of the world. If such apparent differences can exist within one religion based on a single book, what apparent differences can be expected regarding a God who has spoken to the entire human race in various manners, expressions and manifestations?

It's almost like we're frightened little monkeys warning of the dangers and evils of other tribes that are just as afraid of us and think we are just as dangerous and evil. We have to evolve. We have to expand our understanding to see the greater reality.

I see it like this, there are five blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall. The fifth, after discovering his part of the elephant, announces that it must be two coconuts in a leather bag! LOL!

Each in his blindness is describing the same thing: an elephant. Yet each describes the same thing in a radically different way.

This is how we are with God. Each civilization has encountered God and experienced him in such a manner that is so radically different from how other civilizations have experienced him. And so we argue over rather God is like a snake, or a tree, or a rope, or a wall. We hear various revelations concerning the specific questions we have and argue over the answers we've each received. For example, one culture that has never had any interest in past lives hasn't received any revelation concerning them. Yet another has had interest and questions concerning this phenomena and has therefore received much revelation on it. Now the two argue it out and even wage war! Over what? A simple self-centered misunderstanding. We are to love others as ourselves because God wants us to realize that we're not all that different. God wants us to love our enemies because in truth, we have no enemies. Humanity is a single family seeking the light of God and experiencing that light in innumerable ways. We would do well to share what we have all gained from God, would we not?

Could I be mistaken? Of course! No one is perfect and no one has a perfect understanding about the eternal things of God. Would God condemn me to an eternal blazing and fiery Hell forever without any hope of escape or reconciliation because I simply wanted to honor what I thought might be Him in action elsewhere? Really? How insecure could a deity be? lol

If mistaken, I would expect to be laughed at by God, but condemned to flames forever? I don't see it. Such is an insult to the high character, power, wisdom, love, holiness, and compassion of an all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent deity.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

You're quoting a book that I believe has errors due to the cultural biases and languages of human filters, mistranslations, omissions, and additions. A Muslim would throw out verses from the Quran. A devout Hindu would throw out verses from the Upanishads. But these are all corrupted and altered texts.

Thankfully though we have some internet guy on AFF named "Antipas" to sort it all out for us.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Thankfully though we have some internet guy on AFF named "Antipas" to sort it all out for us.

Here are a few contradictions demonstrating that the Bible isn't inerrant.

Who was Joseph's father, Jacob or Heli?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Who was at the Empty Tomb?

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?

MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

Who provoked David to number Israel?

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

How did Judas die, by hanging himself or by leaping headfirst to his death?

"And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field." (MAT 27:5)

"Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Those are just a few contradictions. The Bible isn't inerrant. It was written, copied, and compiled by human beings. The revelation it contains clearly shows the limited understanding, cultural bias, and religious ideals of those involved. It isn't the inerrant "Word of God". However, one can draw many spiritual truths from it's contents.

All of this is also true of every other religious manuscript or sacred scriptures belonging to other religions.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Here are a few contradictions demonstrating that the Bible isn't inerrant.

What is Jesus and the apostles quoting in the New Testament? Meaning what Bible were they getting the quotes from?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What is Jesus and the apostles quoting in the New Testament? Meaning what Bible were they getting the quotes from?

Jesus and his disciples primarily quoted and referenced the Torah and Jewish law. Paul not only quoted the Torah and Jewish law, but he also quoted the Greek philosophers a couple times. This is to be expected. The revelation that became known as "Christianity" was evolving out of Judaism in a culture that was strongly influenced by Greek philosophy.

We see the same thing in Buddhism. Siddhārtha Gautama (Buddha) referenced the Hindu Vedas and shares various concepts that were eventually popularized in the Upanishads. After all, just as Buddhism grew out of Hinduism; Christianity grew out of Judaism.

If you go back even further, every modern religion has reflections of spiritual truths originally found in the ancient mythologies possessed by cultures predating them that have now vanished in the sands of time. And those mythologies even embody concepts found in various cave art and burial customs practiced by Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals.

It's almost like the same story is told over and over again in innumerable ways. This is indicative of a timeless universal spiritual truth.

"I believe that God's truth is higher, deeper & longer than all our creeds and includes what is best in each of them." - Horace Greeley, Unitarian Universalist

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Jesus and his disciples primarily quoted and referenced the Torah and Jewish law. Paul not only quoted the Torah and Jewish law, but he also quoted the Greek philosophers a couple times. This is to be expected. The revelation that became known as "Christianity" was evolving out of Judaism in a culture that was strongly influenced by Greek philosophy.

We see the same thing in Buddhism. Siddhārtha Gautama (Buddha) referenced the Hindu Vedas and shares various concepts that were eventually popularized in the Upanishads. After all, just as Buddhism grew out of Hinduism; Christianity grew out of Judaism.

Sidhartha quoted Vedic writings, because he was a vedic reformist. Yet, if I asked you what translation or interpretation did he quote from could you tell me? That is what I'm asking you. Torah what Torah? What Torah did Jesus and the apostles get their quotes from? Christianity grew out of Judaism? What Judaism? You mean Jesus look liked Rabbi Mendel Schneerson? Was Jesus part of the Baal Shem Tov's Chabad? What Judaism did Christianity grow out of?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sidhartha quoted Vedic writings, because he was a vedic reformist. Yet, if I asked you what translation or interpretation did he quote from could you tell me? That is what I'm asking you. Torah what Torah? What Torah did Jesus and the apostles get their quotes from? Christianity grew out of Judaism? What Judaism? You mean Jesus look liked Rabbi Mendel Schneerson? Was Jesus part of the Baal Shem Tov's Chabad? What Judaism did Christianity grow out of?

Exactly.