Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.

How do you know this is true? I don't think you have ever actually answered that question.

How do you know "all religions lead to the same goal" or whatever version of that which you maintain is true?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How do you know this is true? I don't think you have ever actually answered that question.

How do you know "all religions lead to the same goal" or whatever version of that which you maintain is true?

First, while all religions contain some degree of divine truth, all religions are imperfect human expressions. So, in my opinion, each religion will leave the "fundamentalists" of their religion to a rather troubled afterlife. But the "spiritual" in every faith will intuitively sense the divine truths contained in not only their own faith tradition, but also in the faith traditions of others.

Second, how do you know I'm mistaken? Because your interpretation of an ancient "book" says that I'm mistaken? What makes your book, and your interpretation of it, more authoritative over other books? Because it claims to be? What about every other book's claim to be authoritative over your book and your interpretation of said book? And what makes your book authoritative over the personal experiences of countless life changing near death experiences? What makes your book more authoritative over the increasing shift in global consciousness to the oneness of all things?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

First, while all religions contain some degree of divine truth, all religions are imperfect human expressions. So, in my opinion, each religion will leave the "fundamentalists" of their religion to a rather troubled afterlife. But the "spiritual" in every faith will intuitively sense the divine truths contained in not only their own faith tradition, but also in the faith traditions of others.

Second, how do you know I'm mistaken? Because your interpretation of an ancient "book" says that I'm mistaken? What makes your book, and your interpretation of it, more authoritative over other books? Because it claims to be? What about every other book's claim to be authoritative over your book and your interpretation of said book? And what makes your book authoritative over the personal experiences of countless life changing near death experiences? What makes your book more authoritative over the increasing shift in global consciousness to the oneness of all things?

I notice you failed to answer the question. I asked "How do you know?" and you simply repeated your claim.

So then, it is simply your opinion, based upon nothing (that you have explained, anyway).

All we have are opinions, beliefs, conclusions. Some are based upon careful examination of data, others are based upon wishful thinking, emotion, or some variation of group think accepted without critical examination.

Since you have provided no argumentation for your philosophy besides your own personal authority, which itself is unsubstantiated by anything other than your assertions as to what is and what is not true, and since many of your assertions are in fact both irrational and factually untrue, I see no reason whatsoever to give any credence at all to your personal flights of fancy.

I would suggest, though, that you investigate the claim of Christ's resurrection being an historical and documented event. "Why did the earliest Christians testify that He had resurrected and been seen by them? Were they lying? Were they hallucinating? Were they delusional? Mistaken? etc.

But that would of course require a willingness to go where the evidence leads, not lead the evidence where you want it to go - an often arduous task.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I notice you failed to answer the question. I asked "How do you know?" and you simply repeated your claim.

recognizing that all religion is man's attempts to reach God helped here. You have laws, rules, a council of men, dues, everything to suspect that you are engaged in a religion.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I notice you failed to answer the question. I asked "How do you know?" and you simply repeated your claim.

So then, it is simply your opinion, based upon nothing (that you have explained, anyway).

I had an experience. I'm not altogether comfortable talking about it because it brings up such deep emotion. The experienced forever changed my thoughts on death and God. I've seen it. I've seen what many others have seen. I've experienced what they've experienced. It's real. And in that moment the only way I can describe it is it is like a "download" of intuitive knowing. There are no words, it's like telepathy with emotion. It's so hard to explain. It was indescribable peace. A oneness that is beyond words. A realization that is almost instinctual. It is almost as though you are remembering what you knew was true all along, but had forgotten. And it is almost as though we are all going through life desperately trying to remember.

All we have are opinions, beliefs, conclusions. Some are based upon careful examination of data, others are based upon wishful thinking, emotion, or some variation of group think accepted without critical examination.

If I tell you that I've swam in the ocean and you've never seen the ocean (or can't remember it) and deny its existence, there's little I can do to prove what it is like. You have to experience it yourself.

I'd like to say again, I'm not here to change your beliefs. They won't change at this time anyway. I'm here to give you a conversation that will serve to help you deal with the reality you are going to one day face so that you can avoid the darkness. I expect you to not believe me, mock me, ridicule me, and laugh at me. It is what I would have done to anyone approaching me saying what I am sharing. But the day will come, and it is unavoidable, when you too will see what I've seen. And your first impulse will be disbelief. You'll even feel anger and like you've been betrayed. Then you'll wonder if it is real and recoil from it, reject it, and even prepare to curse it. It is like pure rage and disappointment. All of these emotions will come in a split second, but this brief second will feel like an eternity. It is almost as though time stands still as you process what is unfolding in front of you. And if you linger there too long you will begin to drift into the darkness. The Light will draw you, but it will not force you. Even the language of that sentence is so difficult. I said, "it", but it isn't an "it", it is a, "he", but it isn't a, "he". It is beyond any description our language can capture. But the Light will draw you. Entire portions of your life will be relieved in a split second, entire decades. Your life literally flashes before your eyes. Sometimes in motion picture, sometimes in just a frozen picture, sometimes rewinding and fast forwarding. You feel the emotions of everyone around you as though their emotions are flowing on a web of some sort that is linking us all. You'll see a you that you've never seen or experienced. You'll see how you were perceived through the eyes of others. Different views of you. Some will bring surprise. Some will bring shame.

I don't want to get into it. Also, because it is so dear to me and so many emotions are connected to what happened, I don't want to see it torn apart under uninformed criticism. Not just because it hurts me. But because I know it will one day hurt the critic. If only I could just "beam" my experience into your head, perhaps you'd understand. But I can't. All I can do is equip you. It will not be like anything you're prepared to experience. In fact, your religious determination and preparation will hinder you more than you realize right now. Just be prepared to embrace the Light. He will not hurt you. He loves you. In fact, you are a part of him. You came out from him and will return to him. You, in a very real way, are him and he is you. As am I, and as is every human being who has ever lived. It is indescribable.

Since you have provided no argumentation for your philosophy besides your own personal authority, which itself is unsubstantiated by anything other than your assertions as to what is and what is not true, and since many of your assertions are in fact both irrational and factually untrue, I see no reason whatsoever to give any credence at all to your personal flights of fancy.

I have no authority. And as I have said, I am not here to convince you. I'm only here to have the conversation. What you glean from what I'm telling you will one day be more important than all the books peddled by modern religion. Do not allow the myths of this world to cause you to fear or hate. Do not become so dogmatic that you'll look GOD in the face and curse the Light.

I would suggest, though, that you investigate the claim of Christ's resurrection being an historical and documented event. "Why did the earliest Christians testify that He had resurrected and been seen by them? Were they lying? Were they hallucinating? Were they delusional? Mistaken? etc.

I don't discount the resurrection. Nor do I judge any who believed in it.

But that would of course require a willingness to go where the evidence leads, not lead the evidence where you want it to go - an often arduous task.

Evidence means nothing when you have an experience.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Antipas

And your first impulse will be disbelief. You'll even feel anger and like you've been betrayed. Then you'll wonder if it is real and recoil from it, reject it, and even prepare to curse it. It is like pure rage and disappointment.

i have experienced something similar to the first part here, extreme cognitive dissonance, but did not get so far, well, quite so far, as the ending. I'm not sure why, but the passage the last shall be first allowed me to trust, even as i was completely adrift from my religious underpinnings, doctrines. It was weird though, ya, i tried to convince myself i was being tested or deceived, even as a little part of me knew different. But might be experienced somewhat differently by everyone?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I had an experience. I'm not altogether comfortable talking about it because it brings up such deep emotion. The experienced forever changed my thoughts on death and God. I've seen it. I've seen what many others have seen. I've experienced what they've experienced. It's real. And in that moment the only way I can describe it is it is like a "download" of intuitive knowing. There are no words, it's like telepathy with emotion. It's so hard to explain. It was indescribable peace. A oneness that is beyond words. A realization that is almost instinctual. It is almost as though you are remembering what you knew was true all along, but had forgotten. And it is almost as though we are all going through life desperately trying to remember.



If I tell you that I've swam in the ocean and you've never seen the ocean (or can't remember it) and deny its existence, there's little I can do to prove what it is like. You have to experience it yourself.

I'd like to say again, I'm not here to change your beliefs. They won't change at this time anyway. I'm here to give you a conversation that will serve to help you deal with the reality you are going to one day face so that you can avoid the darkness. I expect you to not believe me, mock me, ridicule me, and laugh at me. It is what I would have done to anyone approaching me saying what I am sharing. But the day will come, and it is unavoidable, when you too will see what I've seen. And your first impulse will be disbelief. You'll even feel anger and like you've been betrayed. Then you'll wonder if it is real and recoil from it, reject it, and even prepare to curse it. It is like pure rage and disappointment. All of these emotions will come in a split second, but this brief second will feel like an eternity. It is almost as though time stands still as you process what is unfolding in front of you. And if you linger there too long you will begin to drift into the darkness. The Light will draw you, but it will not force you. Even the language of that sentence is so difficult. I said, "it", but it isn't an "it", it is a, "he", but it isn't a, "he". It is beyond any description our language can capture. But the Light will draw you. Entire portions of your life will be relieved in a split second, entire decades. Your life literally flashes before your eyes. Sometimes in motion picture, sometimes in just a frozen picture, sometimes rewinding and fast forwarding. You feel the emotions of everyone around you as though their emotions are flowing on a web of some sort that is linking us all. You'll see a you that you've never seen or experienced. You'll see how you were perceived through the eyes of others. Different views of you. Some will bring surprise. Some will bring shame.

I don't want to get into it. Also, because it is so dear to me and so many emotions are connected to what happened, I don't want to see it torn apart under uninformed criticism. Not just because it hurts me. But because I know it will one day hurt the critic. If only I could just "beam" my experience into your head, perhaps you'd understand. But I can't. All I can do is equip you. It will not be like anything you're prepared to experience. In fact, your religious determination and preparation will hinder you more than you realize right now. Just be prepared to embrace the Light. He will not hurt you. He loves you. In fact, you are a part of him. You came out from him and will return to him. You, in a very real way, are him and he is you. As am I, and as is every human being who has ever lived. It is indescribable.



I have no authority. And as I have said, I am not here to convince you. I'm only here to have the conversation. What you glean from what I'm telling you will one day be more important than all the books peddled by modern religion. Do not allow the myths of this world to cause you to fear or hate. Do not become so dogmatic that you'll look GOD in the face and curse the Light.



I don't discount the resurrection. Nor do I judge any who believed in it.



Evidence means nothing when you have an experience.

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Have you ever dropped acid?

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Have you ever dropped acid?

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

i have been encouraged at times to go down paths of my own desire in order to perceive the rather painful lesson at the end. Knowing at the beginning roughly what would happen, yet unable to grasp the truth until i put my hand in the fire, so to speak.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

I agree. Maybe I should have worded that better. Perhaps I should have said - Religious dogmas mean nothing when you have an experience.

Thank you for pointing that out.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Who is to say that we must agree? Might your truth be true for you and my truth true for me?

For example, let's assume that your experience leads you to embrace reincarnation. Yet, my intuitive sense lends me to not embrace reincarnation. Should we battle it out over reincarnation, or might there be a reason why you were intuitively led along that understanding? Might the Divine Reality have reincarnation in store for you and not for me? Or might the topic be of more importance for you to examine at this time than it is for me?

Why is there a need to try to prove someone wrong or to force agreement?

Have you ever dropped acid?

No.

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

Why is a mistaken idea bad? Do we not learn many lessons from our mistakes? What if a mistaken idea is necessary for one of us to learn a series of very important lessons for our soul's development?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I agree. Maybe I should have worded that better. Perhaps I should have said - Religious dogmas mean nothing when you have an experience.

Thank you for pointing that out.



Who is to say that we must agree? Might your truth be true for you and my truth true for me?

If something is true, it is true regardless if any, some, none, or all acknowledge it to be true. There is no such thing as relative truth, as in "true for you but not for me". 2+2=4 for both of us, even if I believe with all my heart that 2+2=5. In that case, I do not have an alternative truth, I simply have an error, ie a falsehood.

The word truth implies objectivity, not relativity. So "true for thee but not for me" is inherently a contradiction and a non-possibility. We may have different even contradictory opinions, but not truths. If something is a truth, that simply means it is factual and corresponds to reality. And therefore cannot differ from one person to another. Facts are, after all, facts.

Religion and metaphysics and ethics and philosophy and theology are a searching out of the facts, and drawing conclusions from those facts. If truth is relative, then there is no such thing as knowing - of any kind, except the delusional, illusory, non-reality kind.

For example, let's assume that your experience leads you to embrace reincarnation. Yet, my intuitive sense lends me to not embrace reincarnation. Should we battle it out over reincarnation, or might there be a reason why you were intuitively led along that understanding? Might the Divine Reality have reincarnation in store for you and not for me? Or might the topic be of more importance for you to examine at this time than it is for me?

Who determines the importance of a particular "life topic"? Who determines what life topics are to be explored, as you put it? Either reincarnation is a factual reality... or it is not. Even if reincarnation were selective (only certain people reincarnate) it would still be a fact. So either it exists... or it does not.

If it does, and I believe it does not, then I am deceived. And deception is inferior to knowing reality. If reincarnation is false, and yet I believe that it is true, then again my knowing does not correspond with Reality, and I am under a spell of delusion. And since knowing things as they are is superior in every way to "knowing" things as they are not (ie knowing truth is better than not knowing truth, and being deceived), then it follows that if we desire to know reality we will begin with the assumption that some things are true and their opposites are false, and that falsehood is to be rejected.

Why is a mistaken idea bad? Do we not learn many lessons from our mistakes? What if a mistaken idea is necessary for one of us to learn a series of very important lessons for our soul's development?

My previous paragraph answers that question.