Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

After one has a conversion experience, this is not a comfortable thought--but satan still appeals to you, will be perceived as beautiful, while the presence of God would send you screaming mindlessly in fear. Hard to grasp.

There is something about the Light that does initially cause one to fear and recoil in terror. It is the confrontation of that which is "other". Something far far different from anything we have known. Imagine suddenly really being brought into the presence of GOD.... and GOD isn't how you've ever envisioned him and you instantly sense that GOD has no religion and is unimpressed by human religion. Especially if you've staked your entire life on following one of the story book religions of man.

Those in the darkness aren't always the "sinful" and "immoral" souls. Interestingly, many of those we'd call sinful and immoral were more authentic and loving than religious people. Many of those in the darkness are abusive and hurtful people who have condemned themselves for who they allowed themselves to become. Unable to conceive of being forgiven, they are lost in the darkness, tormented by memories and the reality of the pain they caused. Yet, even they can end their own suffering by accepting that they were wrong and that they too are loved. In their pain and shame, they've rejected GOD's love. And they will remain in darkness until they forgive themselves and accept the Love of GOD.

An unbelievable number of souls in the darkness are those who were extremely "religious". So religious, in fact, they made a idol of their religions, their books, their belief systems, and their traditions. And when they finally died and saw the Light... he wasn't what they expected. And so they rejected Him, for their religion, their idol. And so they drift in the darkness still praying to the idols of the heart and mind, praying that their specific vision of their "god" will come rescue them. They will remain there until they surrender and realize that they were wrong and that by rejecting the Light, they rejected Love. They will have to lay down their religions and accept GOD's love. Only after surrender and acceptance can these lost souls enter the Light.

[mfblume]

Let me also note that the Lord has taught me to sincerely pray and seek Him to correct me if I am wrong. I believe that is the part of the Lord's prayer that speaks of leading us not into temptation but delivering us from evil. It corresponds to His words in Matt 7 about the wide and narrow paths and the false prophets. I pray that everytime I pray. And I teach our people to do the same.

[mfblume]

Antipas, how do you know -- what is your standard -- for saying buddhism is a true as Christianity? What is your standard for rejecting some verses in the bible as though they are corruptions and accepting others you claim are true? How do you know the difference?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Is that why there are entire branches of Christianity that embrace the same Bible who firmly believe it teaches Apocatastasis (universal reconciliation)?
Again, it is all in how it is interpreted by the reader. Another human "filter".

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE . . ."

The scriptures DO NOT teach reconciliation of all denominations OUTSIDE
of the gospel that saves (which you seem to infer). Rather, it teaches
that we need to be reconciled only to God; that is, "To wit, that God was
in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses
unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

The WORD of reconciliation is nothing less than the gospel that saves: it
undoubtedly is the ". . . ministry of reconciliation . . ." that the apostle
alluded to himself and the other twelve (excluding Judas Iscariot, but we
include Matthias).

Why are there so many "entire branches of Christianity that embrace the
same Bible..."? There are several reasons, of which I will name but a few:
(1) There are many who, as Apollos, have known only ". . . the baptism
of John . . ." (the Old Testament);
(2) then there are those who have heard the gospel that saves, but have
only received a [denominational interpretation];
(3) of course there are those who have completely heard and received
the gospel that saves: such as many Brothers here, and myself;
(4) and there are those who are still blind: and although they have surely
HEARD of the gospel that saves, they cannot SEE (perceive, understand,
or discern) ". . . the kingdom of God . . ."

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter . . ."

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Antipas, how do you know -- what is your standard -- for saying buddhism is a true as Christianity?

I don't believe Buddhism is as true as Christianity. It might be better put that both Buddhism and Christianity are equally flawed human religions. The truth transcends all religion. It can be seen in them at various points, but each religion is terribly imperfect. For example, the vast majority of Christians believe the Bible to teach that God as a triad instead of a monad. That's a flaw, an error, an imperfection, evidence of flawed human logic.

I am not saying that all religious are true. I'm saying that various elements of the Divine Reality can be found in every imperfect religion. Not all religions are of equal value either. Christianity, in my opinion, is superior in regards to its love ethic. However, Buddhism is superior to Christianity in how it is focused on living in this present moment. Christianity is caught in a constant examination of the past while periodically day dreaming about the future. Sadly, this has created many shallow relationships throughout the Christian faith. There are fathers missing some of the most precious moments with their wives and children because they feel it is for some reason more important to "debate" theology with people that disagree. As though it is their job to force or convince others to think like them. And even while driving, working, or doing countless other things, these Christians are still pondering, examining, and even debating in their heads. They are never "in the moment". They are "in the clouds". A religious fog of sorts has settled upon their minds and they are radically dedicated to their conceptualizations. They will actually tell you that making this entire universe in 6 days, making a woman from a rib, and talking snakes are... perfectly logical. lol

They missed the truth the story was intended to teach. They're so busy trying to convince everyone that the story is factual... they've yet to discover its truths. And sadly, they've done this with the majority of their entire religion.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE . . ."

The scriptures DO NOT teach reconciliation of all denominations OUTSIDE
of the gospel that saves (which you seem to infer). Rather, it teaches
that we need to be reconciled only to God; that is, "To wit, that God was
in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses
unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

The WORD of reconciliation is nothing less than the gospel that saves: it
undoubtedly is the ". . . ministry of reconciliation . . ." that the apostle
alluded to himself and the other twelve (excluding Judas Iscariot, but we
include Matthias).

Why are there so many "entire branches of Christianity that embrace the
same Bible..."? There are several reasons, of which I will name but a few:
(1) There are many who, as Apollos, have known only ". . . the baptism
of John . . ." (the Old Testament);
(2) then there are those who have heard the gospel that saves, but have
only received a [denominational interpretation];
(3) of course there are those who have completely heard and received
the gospel that saves: such as many Brothers here, and myself;
(4) and there are those who are still blind: and although they have surely
HEARD of the gospel that saves, they cannot SEE (perceive, understand,
or discern) ". . . the kingdom of God . . ."

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter . . ."

Of course. And let me guess. They must be saved as you have interpreted the Gospel. Am I correct?

[Antipas]

I like these forums. In some ways it is entertaining to watch dozens of men who claim that the Bible is perfect and inerrant debate thousands of different ideas, each insisting that their ideas is the what the Bible is actually teaching. lol

They are living proof of what I'm saying! Even if the Bible were inerrant, we are not. So not a single human being reading the Bible can have perfect understanding.

Now graduate this idea to a global level. Man is GOD's creation. And GOD has sought to communicate with man from the very beginning. However, man (being prone to error) has built errant religions around every revelatory understanding that GOD has communicated. Essentially, every religion is just another "denomination" of the Divine Reality.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I don't believe Buddhism is as true as Christianity. It might be better put that both Buddhism and Christianity are equally flawed human religions.

Ok, then let's go with that. How do you know they are equally flawed? What are you comparing the evidence from both religions with in order to arrive at that conclusion? Is it the Spirit of God, and nothing tangible like a writing? Trying to figure out your concept.

The truth transcends all religion. It can be seen in them at various points, but each religion is terribly imperfect.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

For example, the vast majority of Christians believe the Bible to teach that God as a triad instead of a monad. That's a flaw, an error, an imperfection, evidence of flawed human logic.

I am not saying that all religious are true. I'm saying that various elements of the Divine Reality can be found in every imperfect religion. Not all religions are of equal value either. Christianity, in my opinion, is superior in regards to its love ethic. However, Buddhism is superior to Christianity in how it is focused on living in this present moment. Christianity is caught in a constant examination of the past while periodically day dreaming about the future. Sadly, this has created many shallow relationships throughout the Christian faith. There are fathers missing some of the most precious moments with their wives and children because they feel it is for some reason more important to "debate" theology with people that disagree. As though it is their job to force or convince others to think like them. And even while driving, working, or doing countless other things, these Christians are still pondering, examining, and even debating in their heads. They are never "in the moment". They are "in the clouds". A religious fog of sorts has settled upon their minds and they are radically dedicated to their conceptualizations. They will actually tell you that making this entire universe in 6 days, making a woman from a rib, and talking snakes are... perfectly logical. lol

They missed the truth the story was intended to teach. They're so busy trying to convince everyone that the story is factual... they've yet to discover its truths. And sadly, they've done this with the majority of their entire religion.

How do you know these things, though? Everyone has a standard upon which they base their conclusions. What is yours? Instinct? Intuition? God's Spirit speaking or leading you? A particular writing that is conclusively correct on the matter?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I like these forums. In some ways it is entertaining to watch dozens of men who claim that the Bible is perfect and inerrant debate thousands of different ideas, each insisting that their ideas is the what the Bible is actually teaching. lol

They are living proof of what I'm saying! Even if the Bible were inerrant, we are not. So not a single human being reading the Bible can have perfect understanding.

Now graduate this idea to a global level. Man is GOD's creation. And GOD has sought to communicate with man from the very beginning. However, man, being prone to error, has built errant religions around every revelatory understanding that GOD has communicated. Essentially, every religion is just another "denomination" of the Divine Reality.

You consistently look at the interaction of people and their disagreements to form your opinion. What you miss is the chance of someone having it right. If that is the case, hypothetically, you would relegate that person to equally being as wrong as the others. You are generalizing and not dealing with the actualities of, let's say, a particular verse of scripture.

I have been changed in MAJOR issues in the bible throughout the years because I make it part of my prayer, likely the most important part -- God, correct me where I am wrong. I know I have believed error and was corrected. I give lots of room for that. Hence, my signature "My thoughts, anyway...."

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Ok, then let's go with that. How do you know they are equally flawed? What are you comparing the evidence from both religions with in order to arrive at that conclusion? Is it the Spirit of God, and nothing tangible like a writing? Trying to figure out your concept.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

How do you know these things, though? Everyone has a standard upon which they base their conclusions. What is yours? Instinct? Intuition? God's Spirit speaking or leading you? A particular writing that is conclusively correct on the matter?

Blume, let me contemplate your questions. I'll return to them.

I noticed, you didn't argue that anything I said about Christianity is untrue. I'm sure that even you have been prone to debate over something like the idea of a talking snake for hours.

But it should be noted, snakes don't talk. That's a fact. They don't have the physical ability to do so, and never did.