What is the GOSPEL?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I am not going to repost Mikes post, but I am going to ask a couple of questions in regards to his post.

First, if the OT was types and shadows of good things to come. And is as I understand it, on the day of atonement the sacrificial lamb atoned for the sins of the whole nation for the previous year, lookin to the cross. And this sacrifice was carried out by the priest, with the high priest alone taking the blood in to the holy of holies. Every thing was done by the priest. And the NT tells us that Christ became our high priest. How can we say that other than believe as did the nation of Israel every year did when this was carried out, that we must do one thing other than believe in the work Christ did for us on the cross for our salvation?

Did not Christ say, "whosoever believeth on him in the same manner as the nation believed on the serpent lifted in the wilderness shall be saved?"

Satan believes also but we both know there is more to it than belief.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Satan believes also but we both know there is more to it than belief.

No there is not else Cornelius would not have received the HG before baptism. It is the spirit of Christ that makes us one of his, "if you have not the spirit of Christ you are not one of his".

If Abraham was righteous before God by faith before circumcision, I am righteous before God by faith before baptism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No there is not

Then satan is saved.

else Cornelius would not have received the HG before baptism. It is the spirit of Christ that makes us one of his, "if you have not the spirit of Christ you are not one of his".

If Abraham was righteous before God by faith before circumcision, I am righteous before God by faith before baptism.

I agree righteousness comes before baptism. But that does not mean baptism is not part of salvation. It 's a covenant issue. Signatures on the covenant are seals. Spirit seal and baptismal seal. God's and ours.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Spirit seal and baptismal seal. God's and ours

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then satan is saved.



I agree righteousness comes before baptism. But that does not mean baptism is not part of salvation. It 's a covenant issue. Signatures on the covenant are seals. Spirit seal and baptismal seal. God's and ours.

Mike
how many signatures do you need to sign before you are saved. Or how many covenants do you need to sign?

Where does it stop? How do I know if there are not more steps I must do or complete? What about holiness, is there a point ever that I can be sure of my salvation?

There was a teaching that the tabernacle in the wilderness was a tangible plan of salvation. Problem is/was that everything that is proposed as the plan of salvation was carried out by the high priest. The issue of sin was taken care of by the priest once a year till Christ finished the work by the cross then offering his blood in the heavenly H.O.H.

Now you say that although Christ fulfilled everything we must perform actions of our faith to receive salvation. OK Right.

As far as I see it, you are preaching a salvation of works. Call it anything you want. It is still works.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness"

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
how many signatures do you need to sign before you are saved.

Godsdrummer, what is a covenant?

Or how many covenants do you need to sign?

What is a covenant? It's a contract and testament. Right?

Where does it stop?

It stops where the Word says it stops. It begins where the Word says it begins.

How do I know if there are not more steps I must do or complete?

What did Peter command them the first day the Spirit was poured out? Simple.

What about holiness, is there a point ever that I can be sure of my salvation?

You are taking this into an area that has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying stick with the word, and don'[t add to it nor take away from it. Jesus said baptism saves. Peter said baptism saves. Paul said baptism washes sins. It's PART of salvation. And shazeep never acknowledges I say this, but without faith none of it does any good.

There was a teaching that the tabernacle in the wilderness was a tangible plan of salvation. Problem is/was that everything that is proposed as the plan of salvation was carried out by the high priest.

\

No problem there! The high priest is JESUS. And Jesus stood in OUR STEAD and acted as if we were doing it! His holiness was applied to us, and that makes it as good as what we did. So that's the difference. That principle is found in Heb 9.

The issue of sin was taken care of by the priest once a year till Christ finished the work by the cross then offering his blood in the heavenly H.O.H.

Now you say that although Christ fulfilled everything we must perform actions of our faith to receive salvation. OK Right.

We must apply that work of salvation to our lives, since it does not happen automatically. And everything done toi apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it , and prove God alone earned it for us through the work Jesus, our high priest, did.

As far as I see it, you are preaching a salvation of works. Call it anything you want. It is still works.

You say that because you have a totally different definition of works than what the bible deals with. We spoke of this before. You do not realize that works in the bible that are forbidden are things we do to earn salvation to prove OUR PERSONAL GOODNESS, and prove we have no need of the death of Jesus to take place. And if you take YOUR view of works all the way, then you have a salvation by works, too. How do I know? I already said this before and you never answered, but here it is again:

Joh 6:28-29....Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ..(29)....Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?" (29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

It is a work to believe. Jesus said so himself! But that is not wrong, because that's not the kind of works the bible condemns. THINKING is a work, Godsdrummer. BELIEVING is a work. But it's part of what saves because it's not a work that earns salvation by proving our goodness and that we have no need of the cross.

The works themselves are not what save us in and of themselves. They are the works that prove we have real faith. But without that work then we don't have the real faith. that's why God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if He foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised in obedience.

Now, you have not responded to many things I said in response to all your words directed to me. Unfair. But anyway, whatever. This time, I really want to see a response from you or anyone else about how Jesus said the WORK God requires is belief. Tell me why Jesus called that a work. And tell me how that does not betray your belief to be error when you say WORKS are WORKS and they cannot save, whether they are done to earn salvation and prove we're good enough without the cross, or not.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness"

And that BELIEF we have by looking to the cross with eyes of understanding IS A WORK according to Jesus. This proves WORKS that are condemned are only a certain KIND.

Really awaiting your response to what I wrote in red.

Blessings!

[shazeep]

"We must apply that work of salvation to our lives, since it does not happen automatically. And everything done to apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it , and prove God alone earned it for us through the work Jesus, our high priest, did."

anyone see contradiction?

it's only a contradiction because...

it is a perceived contradiction, iow, based upon judgement of the other person's heart, which cannot be known.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Godsdrummer, what is a covenant?



What is a covenant? It's a contract and testament. Right?

Nice. It's a promise.

Originally Posted by mfblume

It stops where the Word says it stops. It begins where the Word says it begins.

It stops, and begins where the Book says all that; not the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

What did Peter command them the first day the Spirit was poured out? Simple.

You found something simple? Now i have to go look...ah, yes. So simple a child could do it. But you are adulting, you are still an adult. Little children have no problem listening to hippies.

Originally Posted by mfblume

You are taking this into an area that has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying stick with the word, and don'[t add to it nor take away from it. Jesus said baptism saves. Peter said baptism saves. Paul said baptism washes sins. It's PART of salvation. And shazeep never acknowledges I say this, but without faith none of it does any good.

Without faith none of it does any good. But you are sticking with the letter, not the Word, and you are sticking to your beliefs, not your faith. Baptism saves and washes, and they are a part of salvation, an integral part. You are washed in the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

No problem there! The high priest is JESUS. And Jesus stood in OUR STEAD and acted as if we were doing it!

Amen.

Originally Posted by mfblume

His holiness was applied to us, and that makes it as good as what we did.

Yes. But you must believe that, you have to have faith; and you are asked to have faith in something you never saw, and no one can prove to you. How can anyone be asked to do this?

Originally Posted by mfblume

So that's the difference. That principle is found in Heb 9.

Difference? There's a difference? Now i have to go look again...ah ok. Christ is our High Priest, yes, but you are the priest that you need to insert in there, for your purposes, because Christ our High Priest has done all that He will ever do, except keep breathing the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And everything done toi apply it to us are acts that prove we believe we cannot earn it ,

Can you rephrase this? Because everything is done, except that you believe the Word.

Originally Posted by mfblume

You say that because you have a totally different definition of works than what the bible deals with. We spoke of this before. You do not realize that works in the bible that are forbidden are things we do to earn salvation to prove OUR PERSONAL GOODNESS, and prove we have no need of the death of Jesus to take place.

Nice. Very nice.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And if you take YOUR view of works all the way, then you have a salvation by works, too. How do I know? I already said this before and you never answered, but here it is again:

You are right, and this plan seems to violate Faith, yes? But once you have faith in the Word--not the Letter--then works are all you have left to do. Or, i mean, there is nothing left to do, but you don't just die right after you are saved, so you have to do something, right? You have to live. Actually you have to start living. You have to wake up--well, you just already woke up, but i mean wake up every day, get the kids off to school, do whatever you do, maybe bring the elderly parents, etc. And those are your works, that you do from your faith, that you got from the Word that whoever believes (has faith in the Word) on the Son has eternal life.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?" (29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

It is a work to believe. Jesus said so himself! But that is not wrong, because that's not the kind of works the bible condemns. THINKING is a work, Godsdrummer. BELIEVING is a work. But it's part of what saves because it's not a work that earns salvation by proving our goodness and that we have no need of the cross.

Part of the problem there is that works and good deeds are conflated--which they are the same, don't get me wrong--but believing is also a lot of work, because you are an adult now, and it is very hard to forget all that you have learned. So, a lot of work, that a little child does not have to do, and that work is only a good deed for you.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The works themselves are not what save us in and of themselves. They are the works that prove we have real faith.

Well, you just are going to do them, after you get the Word, because Constantine's Way, deathbed salvation, does not...work. Even though it is possible to get the Word on your deathbed, i guess; but then you would almost surely...yes, definitely, be rejuvenated by the Word, and you would no longer be dying then.

Originally Posted by mfblume

But without that work then we don't have the real faith. that's why God would not have pronounced Abraham righteous if He foresaw Abraham would not be circumcised in obedience.

(If you will make positive statements rather than negative ones, this will go easier; i think anyway, let's see)

"That's why God pronounced Abraham righteous; He foresaw that Abraham would be circumcised in obedience."

amen! Abraham did not have the encumbrance of Law, which we know is inadequate, insufficient, and kills. Abrahamwas a hippy, so to speak. Abraham got Love Your Neighbor, The Gospel, the Word. Abraham did not start adulting.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And that BELIEF we have by looking to the cross with eyes of understanding IS A WORK according to Jesus.

Christ is saying here that..."It is a lot of work for an adult, to do this. Because they have become indoctrinated in the Law, that inadequate thing, which hinders faith in the Word."

And one must do the work, this work, because New Age works are too easily done from the desire to improve self, to make boast, so that self may say "i am better than i was yesterday; hmm i think i might be a little better than that guy, now." Although NA hippies who have the Word, and a pure heart--not both, they are the same thing--are not doing that, that leaven part.

Originally Posted by mfblume

This proves WORKS that are condemned are only a certain KIND.

Yes. The works of Ali are condemned, if he imagined that God would majikally save him because of them. God cannot do this, even if He really, really wanted to, simply because you cannot become an adult for your child. Even though many people try to do this, of course. We all know the outcome for the child. Now, if Ali had the Word, then his works were just what he wanted to do anyway, in the course of his day, from his pure heart, which is the Word.

So, it might be seen that Ali's early, angry works were done from a desire to please God, whereas he got a smile in his later years that tells me that he got the Word, possibly. but please don'y get hung up on hos religion, that you miss the point, which was about reflecting upon his...the state of his heart, toward the good deeds. A good deed covers many sins; probably regardless--but they can be done begrudgingly, "because i have to, to go to heaven," or because one wants to, for whatever number of reasons.

Work is just work; it is no fun, one generally does not volunteer for work. If you volunteer for work, why are you volunteering? Because it will make you look better to certain people? Or because it is something needs doing, and you enjoy pitching in, being a part, know you will want volunteers when you need them, and so are happy to sow, so you can reap?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it is a perceived contradiction, iow, based upon judgement of the other person's heart, which cannot be known.

Nice. It's a promise.

It stops, and begins where the Book says all that; not the Word.

The book is filled with nothing but his word, so it is synonymous with the word..

You found something simple? Now i have to go look...ah, yes. So simple a child could do it. But you are adulting, you are still an adult. Little children have no problem listening to hippies.

I am not "adulting" at all. I accepeted the word without any visible proof it's true.

Without faith none of it does any good. But you are sticking with the letter, not the Word, and you are sticking to your beliefs, not your faith.

Nope. I accepted the word, and believed it. And any acts I did were acts based upon teh word without any physical evidence to prove that word true.

Baptism saves and washes, and they are a part of salvation, an integral part. You are washed in the Word.

The word we are washed in is the word we believed when we got baptized. Jesus gave himself in death for the church so he could present that church to himself without spot or wrinkle. The spots are washed off and the wrinkles are washed away when we are first saved, so we can say our sins are remitted. That's from the washing of baptism where the word connected with us the way God meant it to, and we BELIEVED it. The water of baptism washed nothing. The word we believed in when we were baptized is what washed us. That's why baptism is NOTHING unless we have the FAITH it requires in Christ's death into which we are being baptized. This makes HIS DEATH OUR DEATHS. THAT is the word of faith that we preach.

Yes. But you must believe that, you have to have faith; and you are asked to have faith in something you never saw, and no one can prove to you. How can anyone be asked to do this?

Exactly,. That is what I've been trying to say.

Difference? There's a difference? Now i have to go look again...ah ok. Christ is our High Priest, yes, but you are the priest that you need to insert in there,

No.

I am not the priest when it comes to Christ entering into the holiest in our place. That is NOT where my priesthood begins or ends. We are kings and priests in Rev 1:5-6 and 5:10. But it is HIS blood and HIS work and HIS goodness.... in other words. I am only a priest and king because Jesus became high priest and king of kings and shared with me his identity. That's why I use HIS NAME when I ACT. I have nothing to point to to prove this is true. Just reliance on what His word said.

for your purposes, because Christ our High Priest has done all that He will ever do, except keep breathing the Word.
Can you rephrase this? Because everything is done, except that you believe the Word.
Nice. Very nice.
You are right, and this plan seems to violate Faith, yes? But once you have faith in the Word--not the Letter--then works are all you have left to do.

Faith in the letter is not contrasted by faith in the word. We cannot have FAITH in the letter. That's an oxymoron. The letter is not what is believed. The letter is ONLY acted upon in rule-book obedience. That's what the word says about the letter. If faith is involved, there is no evidence to point at to tell us our target of faith is bona fide. It's TRUST in what he said. And that is not the letter.

So, when one reads about the letter of the law, ONE IS ONLY reading about a set of rules to make oneself holy. But if one is reading word and is told to believe without any physical evidence that it's true, in order to be saved from sin, that is not the letter, that is faith in the word.

Unless we see the letter as a set of rules to obey to make ourselves righteous, we are not understanding what the letter is in the context of the word's reference to it.

Or, i mean, there is nothing left to do, but you don't just die right after you are saved, so you have to do something, right? You have to live. Actually you have to start living. You have to wake up--well, you just already woke up, but i mean wake up every day, get the kids off to school, do whatever you do, maybe bring the elderly parents, etc. And those are your works, that you do from your faith, that you got from the Word that whoever believes (has faith in the Word) on the Son has eternal life.

That is PART of what I meant.

Part of the problem there is that works and good deeds are conflated--which they are the same, don't get me wrong--but believing is also a lot of work, because you are an adult now, and it is very hard to forget all that you have learned. So, a lot of work, that a little child does not have to do, and that work is only a good deed for you.
Well, you just are going to do them, after you get the Word, because Constantine's Way, deathbed salvation, does not...work. Even though it is possible to get the Word on your deathbed, i guess; but then you would almost surely...yes, definitely, be rejuvenated by the Word, and you would no longer be dying then.

I can agree with that.

(If you will make positive statements rather than negative ones, this will go easier; i think anyway, let's see)

"That's why God pronounced Abraham righteous; He foresaw that Abraham would be circumcised in obedience."

amen! Abraham did not have the encumbrance of Law, which we know is inadequate, insufficient, and kills. Abrahamwas a hippy, so to speak. Abraham got Love Your Neighbor, The Gospel, the Word. Abraham did not start adulting.

In a sense, but hippies are more than carefree folks who are lawless. lol SO, I would not take their lawlessness as an example because they fornicated, got drunk and committed adultery.

Christ is saying here that..."It is a lot of work for an adult, to do this. Because they have become indoctrinated in the Law, that inadequate thing, which hinders faith in the Word."

And one must do the work, this work, because New Age works are too easily done from the desire to improve self, to make boast, so that self may say "i am better than i was yesterday; hmm i think i might be a little better than that guy, now." Although NA hippies who have the Word, and a pure heart--not both, they are the same thing--are not doing that, that leaven part.

Yes. The works of Ali are condemned, if he imagined that God would majikally save him because of them. God cannot do this, even if He really, really wanted to, simply because you cannot become an adult for your child. Even though many people try to do this, of course. We all know the outcome for the child. Now, if Ali had the Word, then his works were just what he wanted to do anyway, in the course of his day, from his pure heart, which is the Word.

I agree with what you intend here, but I think you're using the wrong term child and adult. Child faith is not non-thinking faith. You already noted belief is a work. But child-like pictures intend upon accepting something easily without requiring physical proof.

So, it might be seen that Ali's early, angry works were done from a desire to please God, whereas he got a smile in his later years that tells me that he got the Word, possibly. but please don'y get hung up on hos religion, that you miss the point, which was about reflecting upon his...the state of his heart, toward the good deeds. A good deed covers many sins; probably regardless--but they can be done begrudgingly, "because i have to, to go to heaven," or because one wants to, for whatever number of reasons.

Love covers many sins, not a good deed.

Work is just work; it is no fun, one generally does not volunteer for work. If you volunteer for work, why are you volunteering? Because it will make you look better to certain people? Or because it is something needs doing, and you enjoy pitching in, being a part, know you will want volunteers when you need them, and so are happy to sow, so you can reap?

Exactly. If a work we do is to garner attention to us and point out how amazing we are, it's hell-bait.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
how many signatures do you need to sign before you are saved. Or how many covenants do you need to sign?

Where does it stop? How do I know if there are not more steps I must do or complete? What about holiness, is there a point ever that I can be sure of my salvation?

There was a teaching that the tabernacle in the wilderness was a tangible plan of salvation. Problem is/was that everything that is proposed as the plan of salvation was carried out by the high priest. The issue of sin was taken care of by the priest once a year till Christ finished the work by the cross then offering his blood in the heavenly H.O.H.

Now you say that although Christ fulfilled everything we must perform actions of our faith to receive salvation. OK Right.

As far as I see it, you are preaching a salvation of works. Call it anything you want. It is still works.

Man, and it's a lot of work. Why doesn't a little child have to do all this work? Why doesn't a little child need a priest, and doctrines, and snakes on a pole? You grew into an adult; but can you point to the day you started adulting? What, o what, is it that we have to learn how to do, that we so obviously once knew? All of this work, and no work can save you. There's nothing to do, but believe in the Word. And the letter kills, just like the Law. That's the Word, which manifested the Law--it's God breathed.
And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, 'The old is better.'

Which hopefully answers most of this, i think. So you might toggle back and forth

Now, you have not responded to many things I said in response to all your words directed to me. Unfair. But anyway, whatever. This time, I really want to see a response from you or anyone else about how Jesus said the WORK God requires is belief. Tell me why Jesus called that a work. And tell me how that does not betray your belief to be error when you say WORKS are WORKS and they cannot save, whether they are done to earn salvation and prove we're good enough without the cross, or not.

[shazeep]

awesome. now go see why you have to be baptized, and it doesn't matter if you get baptized or not. If this is not clear, pick a side! Pick my side, and i'll stand by your side!

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No there is not else Cornelius would not have received the HG before baptism. It is the spirit of Christ that makes us one of his, "if you have not the spirit of Christ you are not one of his".

If Abraham was righteous before God by faith before circumcision, I am righteous before God by faith before baptism.

"Word"