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[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I totally understand why people leave. You had your run ins while you were in the Apostolic movement. You even posted your war story here.

Your sequence of events is mixed up. I had very few "run ins" while in the movement. After I left I was told God would kill me. By that time I'd been gone 2 years. I didn't leave over bad experience, bad treatment, abuse, etc. None of that. It was doctrine.

And the guy who was the nastiest toward me after leaving was an independent brother. He didn't even fellowship with the UPC because they were too liberal. So why would I have an axe to grind with the UPC when some stand alone pastor far right of the UPC was my "run in"?

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Let me make it plain for you. You read commentaries, and you read other books by other Christian groups. You were shopping for answers.

Let me make it clear for you brother, I already detailed what I read and didn't read while in the movement. You are struggling with sequence of events. Prior to 2010 I read one commentary. Acts by FF Bruce. Now if you criticize me for reading commentaries, consider that oneness commentaries are pretty scarce. Perhaps if they're were a few more literary accomplishments than "Power Before the Throne" they could equip people better.

Nevertheless the majority of what I read came from 1)the required reading list for ministerial license, local and general and 2)the pentecostal publishing house, which catalog I got every year and highlighted all the books I wanted and bought as many as I could afford and read. I didn't even like to read trinitarians as I believed they weren't even saved and had not the spirit.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Or you were in the Apostolic church for years? 10, 20, 30, 40? What's the number old salt?

10 years. January 2000-June 2010

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My question is this, which is the questions I ask all the other seekers? What on earth were you doing for all those long years in Pennycost.

For one God saved me there and I believed that was the truth.
I told you I enjoyed my time in the movement. I still have people in it I love.
I spent my time studying, witnessing, teaching Bible studies, sunday school, and much later preaching. I spent my time being highly involved in the church, building the churches website, doing sound work, recording sermons, distributing CDs, making every prayer meeting, youth rally, and work day. I was super involved with the church and the UPC. Maybe you missed it, but I loved it. To this day, THAT is what I miss. It wasn't a burden, because I loved the people too, they were who we fellowshipped with.

Remember on another thread when I mentioned I'd visited a UPC church last year for a few weeks and you asked why? These were some of the reasons. And that people we still love were there. I enjoy the music, the fellowship, the familiarity. I wanted to give it a chance. In some ways, a lot of ways I missed it. I'll tell you a secret, in some ways I still do. Is that bitterness? Is that bad experience? Is that holding a grudge? Having an axe to grind? Right now my closest pastoral friend in the world, who is a upc district official, who I love dearly, wants me to move to his area and help in the church. Brother, I'm telling you the God honest truth, I want to. I would love to. Its something we talked about for years, even day dreamed about. Now I can and there is nothing holding me back except....

.....I can't pretend to believe things that I don't believe the Bible teaches, in regard to soteriology, the initial evidence doctrine, standards, and tithing. And thats why I dont attend a UPC church. Its why I didnt go back to a UPC after I left the independent holiness church.

Over and over you've blasted me, said I hate apostolics, hate the UPC, and so on. That's not the case, I've just been brutally honest. I miss a lot of things from back then, but I dont believe the doctrine. That is the problem. Nothing else.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

John MacArthur? Sweet Jesus!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Your sequence of events is mixed up. I had very few "run ins" while in the movement. After I left I was told God would kill me. By that time I'd been gone 2 years. I didn't leave over bad experience, bad treatment, abuse, etc. None of that. It was doctrine.

And the guy who was the nastiest toward me after leaving was an independent brother. He didn't even fellowship with the UPC because they were too liberal. So why would I have an axe to grind with the UPC when some stand alone pastor far right of the UPC was my "run in"?


Let me make it clear for you brother, I already detailed what I read and didn't read while in the movement. You are struggling with sequence of events. Prior to 2010 I read one commentary. Acts by FF Bruce. Now if you criticize me for reading commentaries, consider that oneness commentaries are pretty scarce. Perhaps if they're were a few more literary accomplishments than "Power Before the Throne" they could equip people better.

Nevertheless the majority of what I read came from 1)the required reading list for ministerial license, local and general and 2)the pentecostal publishing house, which catalog I got every year and highlighted all the books I wanted and bought as many as I could afford and read. I didn't even like to read trinitarians as I believed they weren't even saved and had not the spirit.

10 years. January 2000-June 2010

For one God saved me there and I believed that was the truth.
I told you I enjoyed my time in the movement. I still have people in it I love.
I spent my time studying, witnessing, teaching Bible studies, sunday school, and much later preaching. I spent my time being highly involved in the church, building the churches website, doing sound work, recording sermons, distributing CDs, making every prayer meeting, youth rally, and work day. I was super involved with the church and the UPC. Maybe you missed it, but I loved it. To this day, THAT is what I miss. It wasn't a burden, because I loved the people too, they were who we fellowshipped with.

Remember on another thread when I mentioned I'd visited a UPC church last year for a few weeks and you asked why? These were some of the reasons. And that people we still love were there. I enjoy the music, the fellowship, the familiarity. I wanted to give it a chance. In some ways, a lot of ways I missed it. I'll tell you a secret, in some ways I still do. Is that bitterness? Is that bad experience? Is that holding a grudge? Having an axe to grind? Right now my closest pastoral friend in the world, who is a upc district official, who I love dearly, wants me to move to his area and help in the church. Brother, I'm telling you the God honest truth, I want to. I would love to. Its something we talked about for years, even day dreamed about. Now I can and there is nothing holding me back except....

.....I can't pretend to believe things that I don't believe the Bible teaches, in regard to soteriology, the initial evidence doctrine, standards, and tithing. And thats why I dont attend a UPC church. Its why I didnt go back to a UPC after I left the independent holiness church.

Over and over you've blasted me, said I hate apostolics, hate the UPC, and so on. That's not the case, I've just been brutally honest. I miss a lot of things from back then, but I dont believe the doctrine. That is the problem. Nothing else.

I've just been brutally honest with you. I will continue to be brutally honest with you as long as you disparage the UPCI, and Apostolic movement on an APOSTOLIC FORUM. You do hate the Apostolic movement. I will clarify why I believe you do. You see Jason you just posted to me you love people who happen to be sitting in a church building. You love music being played in a church building, maybe even how these people pray. I'll pause.

Is that correct?

OK

This is what you hate

All the rest.

Which is the Apostolic theology.

Remember when you brought up Brother Epley in a thread?

I saw that as you being a hater, because bringing him up was to point out some issue you had with the movement.

You visit a building, you listen to music, hold hands in the air for about 15 minutes? Hug some necks, maybe say I love you, and then go home.

As far as your commentary reading, even Lexicons. Is a study in itself. I was stopped dead in my tracks when I made the innocent error in bringing out a Strongs Concordance to a few Rabbi friends of mine. One Rabbi read a few pages of the Hebrew dictionary which is in the back of the Strongs and plopped the book down and said some of these definitions are very wrong. Well, I said that is because it was compiled by a Christian. The Rabbi said, "no, that's not an excuse" he went on to say "that doesn't even explain some of these mistakes"

We went back and forth in another way since I couldn't employ the SC. My wife and I have a huge theological, sociological, library. With some of the oldest commentaries of varying religions. Bro, I teach our church family that before they should ever delve into commentaries, they must first now thoroughly the scripture. Now soteriology correctly as the Old Testament wielding apostles understood it. Which understood it in Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and gasp, Latin. Now, nobody has to be a scholar in any of these things. Yet, before you go to sit down with John MacArthur and 4 Rabbis. You better have your good stuff together. Because if you don't you will just end up on a forum saying stupid stuff to Apostolics about the movement their in.

They won't appreciate it, and will end up charging head first into you.

They won't sit at you confused feet and eat your worm filled manna. That was taken from varying different commentaries and sifted through "Apostolic Movement is Wrong and I will save the people." mindset.

It doesn't fly.

Jason, you are still young and one day (in Jesus name) I hope you have an epiphany and realize the Apostolic movement was correct.