Help! Tormented dreams

[votivesoul]

Aquila, on page 1, post #6, you wrote:

I was involved in a local deliverance ministry for nearly two years.

Then, on page 4, in post #32, you wrote:

I've only encountered a person who I'm certain was "possessed" once...

In nearly two years of deliverance ministry, you only ever encountered one person whom you were certain was "possessed", and that, not even as a part of your formal deliverance ministry training, but just randomly while getting on the bus one day?

Brother, I grew up and lived with three people who were demon possessed, not counting myself. And I consorted with a lot of people who also were, as well. I've met all sorts of people who were possessed by evil spirits, and have been actively involved in casting them out for years. I've been randomly cussed out by strangers, physically attacked, had a knife held up to my throat, and more, by demonized people. I started a campus ministry at a secular, state school, and faced all sorts of demonic pushback, just about everyday for 4.5 years, until I graduated.

So maybe you're out of your league? What kind of deliverance minister only ever meets one person in two years who they are certain is possessed? The church I started out in had people come in all the time who were taken over by evil spirits. A lot of them came in to disrupt and degrade the service; others came in for deliverance, and received it.

But, this is key:

The word "deliverance" is only used by Jesus ONE TIME in the entire Gospels, in Luke 4:18, which reads "...to preach deliverance to the captives...". A lot of people see that, and they go "Aha! He's talking about deliverance ministry for people who are taken captive by evil spirits." Nope. The Greek word translated "deliverance" in that verse is aphesis, which means forgiveness.

Do deliverance ministers preach forgiveness to those who are taken captive? Do they urge the person being afflicted by evil spirits to repent and obey the Gospel? Do they ever see that the common denominator in every person's life who is being demonized, is that the person in question is the one who is at fault?

A lady met some people from our church and asked for help because her and her children were being demonized. Evil spirits were manifesting themselves visually in their house, touching and attacking them, doing the poltergeist thing, and etc. Some brothers and I went over there, talked awhile about her need for salvation, and shared the Gospel with her. She repented of her sins and my brother and I immersed her in the name of the Lord Jesus. When she came out of the water, she began coughing and vomiting sputum and shaking and wailing. We cast the evil spirit out of her, and she received the Holy Spirit.

We went back to her house and prayed, and we knew the house was completely free of evil spirits, simply because she was no longer possessed. Her demonic haunting was the result of her own wickedness and sin, which invited satan into her life. Once her sin issue was dealt with, her demon problem immediately ended.

Another sister I know messed around with a ouija board and other occult things and got herself into a major demonic mess, all of which was solved the day she repented of her sins and received the Holy Spirit and was immersed.

Still another sister, who used to read tarot, but needed the high from smoking dope to do so, had a demon come out of her when she threw her hands down, and shouted "I don't want this anymore!" As soon as she renounced satan in her life, the demon jumped out and she received the Holy Spirit.

The fact is, being freed from evil spirits in the Gospels is always tied to salvation. To say a person, post salvation, is being demonized, is to say they have abandoned their covenant with God, are no longer under the shadow of the Almighty, and are out playing in spiritual minefields. Essentially, it's an accusation that such a one is backslidden. And whether you realize it or not, that's essentially what you've done in this thread, Aquila. You've accused Modest Mama of not being right with God. Or, as you worded it:

If it is a spiritual oppression, and you've already prayed and rebuked it and yet it continues, there might be a stronghold to address before it can be permanently removed. Uprooting the stronghold could be as simple as getting rid of an item connected in some way to the occult or an old relationship/lifestyle. Or it could be more complicated.

Which is just another way of saying, the reason the Lord isn't answering her prayers, and that her rebukes are worthless, and nothing is changing for her is because an evil spirit is holding court over her life because she is harboring some occult idol or fetish in the home, or she is living in a sinful, pre-conversion way, or worse (i.e. more complicated).

Doesn't that shake you up in the slightest, that you basically accused this sister of transgressing her covenant with God?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Aquila, on page 1, post #6, you wrote:



Then, on page 4, in post #32, you wrote:



In nearly two years of deliverance ministry, you only ever encountered one person whom you were certain was "possessed", and that, not even as a part of your formal deliverance ministry training, but just randomly while getting on the bus one day?

Brother, I grew up and lived with three people who were demon possessed, not counting myself. And I consorted with a lot of people who also were, as well. I've met all sorts of people who were possessed by evil spirits, and have been actively involved in casting them out for years. I've been randomly cussed out by strangers, physically attacked, had a knife held up to my throat, and more, by demonized people. I started a campus ministry at a secular, state school, and faced all sorts of demonic pushback, just about everyday for 4.5 years, until I graduated.

So maybe you're out of your league? What kind of deliverance minister only ever meets one person in two years who they are certain is possessed? The church I started out in had people come in all the time who were taken over by evil spirits. A lot of them came in to disrupt and degrade the service; others came in for deliverance, and received it.

I think we might have a disagreement on terms here. I only met one person who was "possessed". While in church one night we had a woman who was possessed. While casting it out of her (I was just holding her arms, I wasn’t leading the deliverance) she became violent and thrashed like crazy with very jerky motions, and she was screaming like she was in pain. As we prayed for her the pastor walked up and ordered the demon to cease making a spectacle and go. She shrieked and fell limp, sobbing on the floor like a baby.

That's the only real "possession" I saw and was personally present for to see observe closely with my own eyes. Her movements and contortions were not natural. Now, I saw and prayed for a number of people who were "oppressed" by the enemy in their lives. Most needed a spirit bound and cast out of their lives, not out of themselves. I also saw people who, as strange as it sounds, thought they were possessed and were just looking for attention and acting a fool in front of the church.

The difference is "possession" vs. "oppression". Please, not distort this too.

But, this is key:

The word "deliverance" is only used by Jesus ONE TIME in the entire Gospels, in Luke 4:18, which reads "...to preach deliverance to the captives...". A lot of people see that, and they go "Aha! He's talking about deliverance ministry for people who are taken captive by evil spirits." Nope. The Greek word translated "deliverance" in that verse is aphesis, which means forgiveness.

Why would "forgiveness" need to be given to captives if they were not taken captive by the enemy due to sin?

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do deliverance ministers preach forgiveness to those who are taken captive? Do they urge the person being afflicted by evil spirits to repent and obey the Gospel? Do they ever see that the common denominator in every person's life who is being demonized, is that the person in question is the one who is at fault?

Yes. Those who are "possessed" are at fault. They opened the door and let the enemy in through their sinful rebellion and toying with powers that they don't understand. These are unsaved individuals who desperately need the message of the Gospel and the deliverance it brings.

Those who are "oppressed" by an evil spirit may not have done anything wrong. Oppression is a spiritual attack from the outside. With regards to oppression, spirits can tempt one to sin, act irrationally, act out of character. They can also seek to drag saints into a state of depression, defeat, and fear.

A lady met some people from our church and asked for help because her and her children were being demonized. Evil spirits were manifesting themselves visually in their house, touching and attacking them, doing the poltergeist thing, and etc. Some brothers and I went over there, talked awhile about her need for salvation, and shared the Gospel with her. She repented of her sins and my brother and I immersed her in the name of the Lord Jesus. When she came out of the water, she began coughing and vomiting sputum and shaking and wailing. We cast the evil spirit out of her, and she received the Holy Spirit.

Praise God. Awesome testimony. And yes, that sounds like possession.

We went back to her house and prayed, and we knew the house was completely free of evil spirits, simply because she was no longer possessed. Her demonic haunting was the result of her own wickedness and sin, which invited satan into her life. Once her sin issue was dealt with, her demon problem immediately ended.

It's like that when the possessed are set free.

Another sister I know messed around with a ouija board and other occult things and got herself into a major demonic mess, all of which was solved the day she repented of her sins and received the Holy Spirit and was immersed.

Sounds like she invited some spirits into her life that began to oppress her. Yes, she was set free upon receiving salvation.

Still another sister, who used to read tarot, but needed the high from smoking dope to do so, had a demon come out of her when she threw her hands down, and shouted "I don't want this anymore!" As soon as she renounced satan in her life, the demon jumped out and she received the Holy Spirit.

A case of possession resolved through repentance and salvation. Many don't realize that they can free themselves if they resist the devil. The Bible assures us that if we resist he devil he will flee.

The fact is, being freed from evil spirits in the Gospels is always tied to salvation. To say a person, post salvation, is being demonized, is to say they have abandoned their covenant with God, are no longer under the shadow of the Almighty, and are out playing in spiritual minefields. Essentially, it's an accusation that such a one is backslidden. And whether you realize it or not, that's essentially what you've done in this thread, Aquila. You've accused Modest Mama of not being right with God. Or, as you worded it:

That's where we some disagreement. I firmly believe that a born again believer who is filled with the Spirit cannot be POSSESSED. But I do believe that they can be OPPRESSED. These are the fiery darts of the enemy that can be resisted through the shield of faith. Unto believers, James writes:

James 4:7 - Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Believers are warned to be sober and vigilant because they may still face an attack from Satan:

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Concerning false teachers and spirits of deception believers are told:

1 John 4:4 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Believers are admonished to put on the whole armour of God:

Ephesians 6:11 - Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Paul wrote,

Ephesians 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Solid born again believers are warned to be on guard for spiritual attacks. They are real. It doesn't mean that a saint has sinned or backslidden if the enemy tries to mess with their mind, disturb their peace, or attack their faith.

Which is just another way of saying, the reason the Lord isn't answering her prayers, and that her rebukes are worthless, and nothing is changing for her is because an evil spirit is holding court over her life because she is harboring some occult idol or fetish in the home, or she is living in a sinful, pre-conversion way, or worse (i.e. more complicated).

Doesn't that shake you up in the slightest, that you basically accused this sister of transgressing her covenant with God?

This sister's situation is periodic. It has been happening on and off over a period of 15 years. I think it is a series of spiritual attacks. It's common practice to have believers be sure that they are not holding onto anything that would give a spirit legal right to remain in their lives. It is also common to have believers examine their own lives to ensure that they are not engaging in any sin that might be related to the oppression.

Why are you twisting this way into something it isn't? Again, this isn't like you.