Rome is Babylon

[Sean]

Amanah, you are right about the Rome/Babylon connection. The book of Rev. defines 2 cities as Jerusalem/Sodom and Rome/Babylon. The Roman govt. was the head of the persection of the saints for hundreds of years, and culminated in the mass deception of the church via Constantine in the 4th century AD. Rome today is a stench to God and "represents" the church to an unbelieving world.

Good post Amanah.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Amanah, you are right about the Rome/Babylon connection. The book of Rev. defines 2 cities as Jerusalem/Sodom and Rome/Babylon. The Roman govt. was the head of the persection of the saints for hundreds of years, and culminated in the mass deception of the church via Constantine in the 4th century AD. Rome today is a stench to God and "represents" the church to an unbelieving world.

Good post Amanah.

You are partially right.

The book of Revelation is about two cities, and even calls them by name.
(old) Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.

Anything else is speculation and actually unscriptural.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bowas

You are partially right.

The book of Revelation is about two cities, and even calls them by name.
(old) Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.

Anything else is speculation and actually unscriptural.

As Boaz ignores the verses that teach two different cities on Earth and sticks his head back in the sand.

[mfblume]

I've mentioned this to Amanah before, but for everyone;s consideration...

Babylon was said to be filled with all blood shed on the earth in Revelation.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus distinctly said that was the case with Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:34-36 KJV Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


There is no reason to say Rome and Jerusalem somehow become one entity. The judgments meted out in Revelation are four sets of sevenfold judgments. And Mosaic Law stated there were four sets of sevenfold judgments to those who BREAK God's LAW. And law is only written to those under the law.... not to entities like Rome.

Leviticus 26:18 KJV And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:21 KJV And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Leviticus 26:24 KJV Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:28 KJV Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.


Also, the BEAST is Rome. And the whore rides the beast, but Rome is not riding Rome.

Revelation 17:4-7 KJV And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (6) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast Rome carries the whore, Jerusalem. The wealth the whore has is from God as his bride:

Ezekiel 16:10-13 KJV I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. (11) I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. (12) And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. (13) Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 3:3 KJV Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.


The voice of bride and bridegroom in her indicate HER MARRIAGE to the Lord. Rome was never married to the Lord.

Jeremiah 7:34 KJV Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.



Kings of earth committed fornication with her, meaning she was a wife as Jerusalem was...

Revelation 18:9 KJV And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Ezekiel 16:28-29 KJV Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (29) Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16:38 KJV And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16:32 KJV But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!


Ezek 16 is all about Jerusalem alone.




Kings of the earth together with Jerusalem:

Acts 4:26-27 KJV The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Kings of earth are rulers of earth. Rome was Herod, Pilate and the gentiles. TOGETHER with Israel. Adultery. Rome cannot commit adultery with itself.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Excellent Brother Blume

[Evang.Benincasa]

The whole idea of the Rome riding Rome is the misunderstanding that 7 mountains are seven hills of the Vatican. Roman Catholic Mystery Babylon is a bit sketchy. Rome had two sections to her empire. A Western and an Eastern, this division continued into her Roman churches, which you had an Eastern and Western Roman church. We aren't shown two harlots, unless you look at Israel and her sister Judah, which are called harlots by your Bible. Trying to fit Rome into Mystery Babylon gets a bit interesting because we have no way of proving it's the Eastern and Western Church with a Bible. Where did Jesus warn us that His bride would become a whore? A great falling away, and those who were antichrists who left because they were NEVER part of the church weren't called harlots. The great falling away happens during the first century A.D. For the logical reason that it would have to be the very first apostasy to pop up within their time. That was Judaizers, not a Roman Catholic papacy. Or even a teaching of a Trinity, changing of water baptism, or Joe Smith dropping LSD in the Sacred Grove in Palmyra New York. It was Judaizers who were teaching new Gentile converts that they were to be baptized In Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost, plus being circumcised, keep the law of Moses, and go sacrifice at the temple.

Nothing about a Roman papacy

[Evang.Benincasa]

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Trying to say that the Roman Catholic church is the great persecutor in the 4th century is total missing what the Apostle said was the chief persecutor.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Matthew 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

That is what was in her cup, all the blood which was shed upon the earth.

Jesus told us who exactly were those who did this, it wasn't sometime in the 4th century. Because Jesus tells us what generation it was, That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. That's pretty plain, Jesus is telling us who Mystery Babylon is, and when she was living.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Acts 9:22-23

But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to KILL HIM:

Acts 20:3

where he stayed three months. And when the Jews formed a PLOT AGAINST him as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia.

Acts 23:12

When daylight came, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had KILLED Paul.

We just can't skip over the Bible evidence to formulate something so impossible to prove.

[Esaias]

I don't have time to post a long drawn out exposition of the subject of "Identity of Apocalyptic Babylon" but I did want to point a few things out. Far too many are labouring under hand-me-down eschatologies and prophetic interpretive schemes inherited from non-apostolic traditions. We need to get to a genuinely apostolic understanding of prophecy. In any event, here are a few points to stimulate thought:

1. It is said that Apocalyptic Babylon is called "the great whore", and that in the OT Jerusalem (and Samaria) were called "whores", that the prophetic designation "whore" can only be speaking of Jerusalem because in the OT the term is only applied to Jerusalem or Samaria, which were capitols of Israelite nations then-currently in covenant with God, ie married to God. Thus, it is said, Apocalyptic Babylon cannot be anything but Jerusalem.

But this is incorrect.

Isaiah 23 is a prophecy about Tyre, a Phoenician city. Tyre is specifically identified as a "whore" or "harlot" engaged in fornication "with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth", language that is nearly identical to the Apocalyptic descriptions of Babylon:

Isaiah 23:15-17 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (16) Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. (17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Revelation 17:1-2 KJV And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Furthermore, Ninevah is also identified as a whore or harlot, engaged in fornication with the nations, and which also is identified with witchcraft:

Nahum 3:4-7 KJV Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. (5) Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. (6) And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock. (7) And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?

So, besides Jerusalem and Samaria, the Bible identifies two non-Israelite cities as whores or harlots involved in fornication with the kings and nations of the earth - Tyre, and Ninevah. Neither Tyre nor Ninevah were "married to God" yet the language used of them in prophecy is identical to the language used of Jerusalem, Samaria, and Apocalyptic Babylon. Such language identifying a city as a whore or harlot, committing fornication with the kings of the earth, and so forth, is not specific prophetic language restricted only to Jerusalem. Rather, it is the language of the prophets in describing an evil nation's capitol engaged in international alliances, commerce, trade, political intrigues, etc. Such a city's international affairs (!) are described as the business of a whore. And more importantly, such language is not restricted to Jerusalem. Therefore, it is erroneous to conclude that Apocalyptic Babylon is Jerusalem simply on the basis of it being called a "whore". Other cities and powers were called whores by God in the prophecies of the Bible.

2. It is said that Jesus declared that upon Jerusalem would come the blood (guilt) of all the righteous who were slain, and that the same language is used in regard to Apocalyptic Babylon, therefore they must be the same city. If all the blood comes upon Jerusalem it cannot come upon any other city, therefore Apocalyptic Babylon must be that same city.

But this is incorrect.

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 23:29-36 KJV Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, (30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luke 11:46-51 KJV And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. (47) Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. (48) Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. (49) Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: (50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (51) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Jesus was not saying all the righteous blood would come upon Jerusalem. He said all the righteous blood would come upon that "generation", and that generation is specifically identified as the scribes and Pharisees and lawyers. Jerusalem is specifically identified in the next verses in Matthew, where
He said her house is left unto her desolate. But the righteous blood is not said to come upon "Jerusalem" but rather upon the Christ-rejecting Jews, the "generation of vipers".

Furthermore, what is said of Apocalyptic Babylon is not the same as what Jesus said concerning the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers:

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Jews would be guilty of the blood of all the righteous from Abel to Zecharias. (What about John the Baptist, Christ Himself, and the early Christian martyrs like Stephen?) But Apocalyptic Babylon would be guilty of the blood of "prophets, and of saints" - not ALL prophets and saints from Abel to Zecharias, but just guilty of the blood of prophets and saints - and also of "all that were slain upon the earth." All that were slain upon the earth encompasses far more than "all the righteous from Abel to Zecharias". The two entities are guilty of two different categories. While there is overlap, in that both are guilty of the blood of saints, prophets, etc, ALL the righteous blood from Abel to Zecharias was to be required of the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers of Christ-rejecting Jews (not merely Jerusalem). Whereas Apocalyptic Babylon would be guilty of the blood of various prophets and saints, and furthermore of ALL that were slain upon the earth (no distinction as to their relative merits is given, it's just ALL THAT WERE SLAIN).

The language of the Apocalypse regarding Babylon does NOT correspond with the language Christ used against the Jews, but rather it corresponds with the language of the Old Testament as used in reference to historical Babylon:

Jeremiah 51:49 KJV As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

So the language in Revelation concerning Babylon is more of an echo of prophetic language used against historical Babylon, rather than being a direct mirror of the language used by Christ against the unbelieving Jews. And, Christ's words were not limited to the physical city of Jerusalem to begin with.

3. It is also said that Apocalyptic Babylon cannot be Rome, because the Beast is Rome, and Babylon is seen as a woman riding the Beast. Rome is not "riding" Rome, therefore Babylon and the Beast must be two different things. And since the Beast is Rome, Babylon must be something else.

Regardless of who or what Babylon represents in the Revelation, I just wanted to point out that the Beast being Rome rules out preterism as a viable system of interpretation. According to Revelation, the Beast destroys Babylon, and then is itself destroyed (along with the second Beast aka the False Prophet) in the lake of fire prior to the start of the thousand years of Revelation 20. Now, it is a fact that Rome was not destroyed anytime soon after the destruction of Jerusalem. If preterists wish to point to the fact that Rome did, eventually, fall into ruin, then they have de facto surrendered the preterist paradigm and have embraced historicism! Rome itself (the Western Empire) is generally regarded on all hands to have fallen around the fifth century AD. The Empire, however, continued well into the medieval period, up to around the 14th or 15th century AD, as the Eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Empire. This would mean that the Beast being thrown into the lake of fire did not come to pass until at least some 400-500 years after AD 70, and the destruction was not complete until some ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS or so after Jerusalem was destroyed! Whatever that may be, whether it be true interpretation of the prophecies, or error, whatever it is - it is not preterism. Not at all. It would be a form of historicism, the idea that the prophecies of Revelation have their fulfillment over the course of a long period of time.

To escape this, some may assert that the Beast is Nero. Aside from the idea that the Beast in the Apocalypse is assuredly not merely one man (an error futurists like to make), the fact is that Nero died in AD 68 - two years before Jerusalem was destroyed. This would require the Beast going to the lake of fire PRIOR to the destruction of Babylon - an impossibility denied by the plain text of the Revelation, which clearly posits the Beast's destruction AFTER Babylon's fall.

Furthermore, Revelation 19 depicts a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Yet this occurs AFTER the destruction of Babylon. This coming in judgment results in the destruction of the Beast, not Babylon. Thus, it can clearly be seen that the preterist interpretation of Babylon as Jerusalem and the Beast as Rome simply does not fit the actual facts, and is internally inconsistent in regards to the flow of events presented in the Apocalypse itself. The only way the Beast can be Rome is if preterism itself, as an interpretative scheme, is rejected.

(to be continued in next post)