Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.

please provide more information on the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

please provide more information on the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.

Falling away:

Matt 24:9-14

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Man of sin revealed.

Matt 24:15-21

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The abomination spoken of by Daniel.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

The second coming aka the rapture.

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In a nutshell!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

please provide more information on the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.

The man of sin... what are his revealed characteristics?

1. He is identified with the Son of Perdition (the phrase is used here, and as a title or designation of Judas, the apostate apostle of Christ who betrayed the Lord).

2. He opposes and exalts himself against God, and all that is called "god". Thus he acts as if he were the supreme being, in opposition to the true God as well as anything else that might be worshipped as deity.

3. He sits in the temple of God as though he was God, in God's place. God's throne is the mercy seat, thus the man of sin enthrones himself in a position on the mercy seat. Since that is in fact Christ's position as Mediator, King, and God, the man of sin replaces Christ and assumes Christ's preogatives as mediator, ruler, and God (source of redemption and salvation).

Now, according to Paul, the temple of God is the body of Christ, the church. In fact Paul in his epistles uses the word "naos" (temple) ONLY in reference to the church of God.

So the man of sin, whose arising coincides with, or at least following, the prophesied Apostasy (falling away), is a character IN THE CHURCH who usurps the place, position, prerogative, and purpose of God generally, and of Christ specifically. As God leads his people, the man of sin puts himself in that place, replacing the leading of the Spirit of God with his own leading.

As the Lord is the Mediator, the man of sin usurps that role and sets himself up as the go-between, between God and men.

As the Lord is the source and dispenser of grace, the man of sin makes himself the one who supplies grace, and apart from him grace cannot be dispensed.

As Judas, the original Son of Perdition, was an apostle, the man of sin arises from and assumes the guise of an apostle or minister of Christ. As Paul identified in 1 Cor 11, when we despise and abuse our brethren in the Supper we assume the role of Judas, and are guilty of the Body of our Lord as he was. Why? Because we abuse and betray the Body of Christ (the church), indicated by eating the bread that represents his Body in an unworthy manner. Therefore the man of sin likewise abuses the Body of Christ (the brethren).

Paul likewise warned the elders of the church at Ephesus that among the eldership would false leaders arise and would ravage the church (Acts
20:28-30). Verse 31 indicates this was a MAJOR concern of Paul's and that he ceased not for three years to warn folks of this coming apostasy and rise of Judas-elders in the church.

So it seems quite clear to me the man of sin is referring to the rise in the church of false leadership that would put itself (themselves) in God's place as the source of authority, direction, and grace (replacing the direction and leading of the Spirit with that of men who despise and ravage the flock. And like Judas, motivation is supplied in part by love of money. They are thieves with a pretense of piety.)

Historically, we find shortly after the death of Paul an apostasy in the church from apostolic truth. Trinitarianism, clericalism, catholicism, monasticism, the most aberrant doctrines imaginable begin to germinate. Along with this great falling away from truth there is the rise of the "monarchical episcopate", illustrated by Ignatius' writings where he taught that apart from the bishop (pastor) there is no church at all. Bishops replace the Spirit of God as leadership, as dispensers of grace, as mediators between God and men. They literally begin to put themselves in God's place, exalting themselves above God. This of course culminates in the Papacy, that bishop who literally claimed at one time to be "God upon earth".

Now, the bishop of Rome is not nowadays sitting in the temple of God (the RCC is not God's church). So it is error to suggest "the man of sin is the pope". But what does that leave? And what can possibly fit ALL the biblical data about this man of sin?

The answer is clericalism: the substitution of man-directed worship and man-centered leadership in place of GOD leading his church and dispensing grace to man. The priesthood of catholicism is but a symptom. The man of sin has enthroned himself IN EVERY CHURCH OF THE LORD that allows MAN to place himself in God's position, that allows humanism and human centered worship to rule, that allows men to be "the ones without whom you cannot be saved", that allows MAN to dictate that which only God in his Word and by his Spirit can properly dictate.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The man of sin... what are his revealed characteristics?

1. He is identified with the Son of Perdition (the phrase is used here, and as a title or designation of Judas, the apostate apostle of Christ who betrayed the Lord).

2. He opposes and exalts himself against God, and all that is called "god". Thus he acts as if he were the supreme being, in opposition to the true God as well as anything else that might be worshipped as deity.

3. He sits in the temple of God as though he was God, in God's place. God's throne is the mercy seat, thus the man of sin enthrones himself in a position on the mercy seat. Since that is in fact Christ's position as Mediator, King, and God, the man of sin replaces Christ and assumes Christ's preogatives as mediator, ruler, and God (source of redemption and salvation).

Now, according to Paul, the temple of God is the body of Christ, the church. In fact Paul in his epistles uses the word "naos" (temple) ONLY in reference to the church of God.

So the man of sin, whose arising coincides with, or at least following, the prophesied Apostasy (falling away), is a character IN THE CHURCH who usurps the place, position, prerogative, and purpose of God generally, and of Christ specifically. As God leads his people, the man of sin puts himself in that place, replacing the leading of the Spirit of God with his own leading.

As the Lord is the Mediator, the man of sin usurps that role and sets himself up as the go-between, between God and men.

As the Lord is the source and dispenser of grace, the man of sin makes himself the one who supplies grace, and apart from him grace cannot be dispensed.

As Judas, the original Son of Perdition, was an apostle, the man of sin arises from and assumes the guise of an apostle or minister of Christ. As Paul identified in 1 Cor 11, when we despise and abuse our brethren in the Supper we assume the role of Judas, and are guilty of the Body of our Lord as he was. Why? Because we abuse and betray the Body of Christ (the church), indicated by eating the bread that represents his Body in an unworthy manner. Therefore the man of sin likewise abuses the Body of Christ (the brethren).

Paul likewise warned the elders of the church at Ephesus that among the eldership would false leaders arise and would ravage the church (Acts
20:28-30). Verse 31 indicates this was a MAJOR concern of Paul's and that he ceased not for three years to warn folks of this coming apostasy and rise of Judas-elders in the church.

So it seems quite clear to me the man of sin is referring to the rise in the church of false leadership that would put itself (themselves) in God's place as the source of authority, direction, and grace (replacing the direction and leading of the Spirit with that of men who despise and ravage the flock. And like Judas, motivation is supplied in part by love of money. They are thieves with a pretense of piety.)

Historically, we find shortly after the death of Paul an apostasy in the church from apostolic truth. Trinitarianism, clericalism, catholicism, monasticism, the most aberrant doctrines imaginable begin to germinate. Along with this great falling away from truth there is the rise of the "monarchical episcopate", illustrated by Ignatius' writings where he taught that apart from the bishop (pastor) there is no church at all. Bishops replace the Spirit of God as leadership, as dispensers of grace, as mediators between God and men. They literally begin to put themselves in God's place, exalting themselves above God. This of course culminates in the Papacy, that bishop who literally claimed at one time to be "God upon earth".

Now, the bishop of Rome is not nowadays sitting in the temple of God (the RCC is not God's church). So it is error to suggest "the man of sin is the pope". But what does that leave? And what can possibly fit ALL the biblical data about this man of sin?

The answer is clericalism: the substitution of man-directed worship and man-centered leadership in place of GOD leading his church and dispensing grace to man. The priesthood of catholicism is but a symptom. The man of sin has enthroned himself IN EVERY CHURCH OF THE LORD that allows MAN to place himself in God's position, that allows humanism and human centered worship to rule, that allows men to be "the ones without whom you cannot be saved", that allows MAN to dictate that which only God in his Word and by his Spirit can properly dictate.

dude...Ive never heard or thought of it like that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

dude...Ive never heard or thought of it like that.

Options for the Man of Sin:

1. Jews rebuild a temple. Global political and/or religious leader performs miraculous signs, enters the temple, and announces to the world via CNN or Twitter that he is the Supreme Being all humans have been worshipping. The world loves it and throws a parade.

Problem: A rebuilt Jewish temple could not be "the temple OF GOD." The NT teaches that the church is the temple of God.

Problem: He would have nowhere to "sit" unless he brought in a chair?

Problem: The vast majority of earth's population would NEVER submit to some world dictator ruling from a JEWISH temple. No Muslim would. No Eastern Orthodox would. Most Roman Catholics would reject him. These alone cover over 2/3rds of the world population. Only hokey dispensationalists and some hyper Orthodox Jews would believe it, and the dispensationalists would all be wondering where the rapture went. Half of Jewry opposes any attempt to rebuild a Temple anyway. Its just not workable.

2. The pope.

Problem: The pope rules the RCC (in name only, he's not actually in charge of anything, that would be the cardinals and Old Roman nobility). The RCC is not the temple of God.

3. Unknown Jew in the 60s AD.

Problem: Huh?

4. Clericalism itself.

Problem: None, it fits ALL data points about "the man of sin".

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Options for the Man of Sin:

1. Jews rebuild a temple. Global political and/or religious leader performs miraculous signs, enters the temple, and announces to the world via CNN or Twitter that he is the Supreme Being all humans have been worshipping. The world loves it and throws a parade.

Problem: A rebuilt Jewish temple could not be "the temple OF GOD." The NT teaches that the church is the temple of God.

Problem: He would have nowhere to "sit" unless he brought in a chair?

Problem: The vast majority of earth's population would NEVER submit to some world dictator ruling from a JEWISH temple. No Muslim would. No Eastern Orthodox would. Most Roman Catholics would reject him. These alone cover over 2/3rds of the world population. Only hokey dispensationalists and some hyper Orthodox Jews would believe it, and the dispensationalists would all be wondering where the rapture went. Half of Jewry opposes any attempt to rebuild a Temple anyway. Its just not workable.

2. The pope.

Problem: The pope rules the RCC (in name only, he's not actually in charge of anything, that would be the cardinals and Old Roman nobility). The RCC is not the temple of God.

3. Unknown Jew in the 60s AD.

Problem: Huh?

4. Clericalism itself.

Problem: None, it fits ALL data points about "the man of sin".

Well if you think it's not going to be an actual "man of sin", or "son of perdition" then how do you explain Rev. 13:1-10?

The scriptures clearly tell us that the beast will be GIVEN the power, the throne and great authority from the dragon/satan himself.

"The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority."

Notice the scripture says "him/his", so it goes from beast, to him/his. Can't we interpret that as meaning it will be a physical human being, a man?

Now if the scriptures say this man will be GIVEN all this power, throne, and authority from satan and it will be GRANTED to him, to make war and overcome the saints and he will have authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation AND ALL who dwell on the earth WILL worship him, whose names are not written.

Shouldn't we believe what the scriptures say? Even though we may not understand the who, how, and when? Rev. is obviously full of symbols, prophecies, and spiritual meanings that are very easily misinterpreted, but I believe if we see an actual human man (in a position of authority let's say) be mortally wounded in his head and be miraculously healed, we better pay attention!

7-8 "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

One of the powers of satan is deception of the whole world! This 'man of sin' will have the same power to deceive ALL the nations!

Rev. 12:9

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Didn't Jesus say to Pontius Pilate that he would have no power over Him unless it was GIVEN to him from above?

John 19:11

"Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Didn't Hitler rise up and take control over a whole nation and try to conquer the whole world? Imagine Hitler times a thousand!

Many, many things go on in this physical world that started in the spiritual realm, many of those things decreed and ordained by God Himself!

Yes sir, I believe we will actually live to see the "man of sin" bka "The antichrist" and I also believe there will be a peace treaty signed for Israel and Palestine, and that they will indeed build a physical third temple on the mount where the Dome of the Rock now sits, likely side by side, only time will tell!

Until then we can debate, discuss, and disagree! But one thing we all need to do is be sure we're in the faith and make sure our souls are in right standing with the Most High God! Because many things can happen when we least expect them!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

[SIZE="2"]Well if you think it's not going to be an actual "man of sin", or "son of perdition" then how do you explain Rev. 13:1-10?

The beast and the man of sin are not the same thing. That is Jesuit Counter-Reformation propaganda.

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The beast and the man of sin are not the same thing. That is Jesuit Counter-Reformation propaganda.

So you believe?

I don't know anything about the Jesuit Counter-Reformation Propaganda and by their name I don't want to know either!