Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

That...

is not this



What you're describing is straight out Thomas Keating's guide:

The Guidelines
1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word
as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
3. When engaged with your thoughts,* return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.
4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.
*thoughts include body sensations, feelings, images, and reflections



That is no different than what the Desert Fathers did, no different than what Hindu or Zen Buddhists do.

Contemplative, centering, lectio divina - all cut from the same mystic and occultic cloth.

Let me be very blunt: you are promoting false doctrine and occultism. #StopIt

My point is... it is relatively the same. Keating didn't discover anything that Pentecostals haven't been doing for generations without all the trappings of Catholicism. Keating is only using systematic terminology that we don't use. We Pentecostals are well ahead of Keating and the charismatics. You mean to tell me that you've never entered into a contemplative state of prayer focused on the name of Jesus, His work on the cross, baptism, Spirit infilling, a specific teaching, or word in Scripture? You've never received visions, insight, or direction based on your reflections in prayer? You've never been in this state of prayer and experienced bodily sensations or deep spiritual impressions? If you have... you've done this too.

Remember, well before Pentecostals became "popular", the main stream denominations were calling us witches, claiming that speaking in tongues was occult or of the devil, and even charging us for seeking "mystical experiences" outside of the purely intellectual framework of Biblical doctrines.

I challenge you with this. I think you've drifted from the more spiritual path that embraces spiritual experiences, visions, and practices to embrace an unbalanced position of rationalism and skepticism. You'd condemn the Apostolic seers, healers, visionaries, and prophets among us because they don't measure up to your dusty old, spiritually dead, pseudo-intellectualism that denounces any spiritual experience or seeking that might challenge your rationalistic interpretation of Scripture.

As I studied soaking prayer and contemplative prayer I found myself thinking... "This guy has no new insight. He's only discussing the spiritual benefits of what we've done and experienced all these years. He's just trying to inject elements of Catholicism into it." There is a growing hunger among those outside of Pentecost for what we've always had and experienced.

[n david]

[houston]

There really is a witch among us.

[houston]

Originally Posted by n david

That’s the point where you stand up and rebuke... or walk out and shake the dust off your feet.

[houston]

I challenge you with this. I think you've drifted from the more spiritual path that embraces spiritual experiences, visions, and practices to embrace an unbalanced position of rationalism and skepticism. You'd condemn the Apostolic seers, healers, visionaries, and prophets among us because they don't measure up to your dusty old, spiritually dead, pseudo-intellectualism that denounces any spiritual experience or seeking that might challenge your rationalistic interpretation of Scripture.

This is like a revision of Tommy Tenney’s God Chasers.

[Aquila]

Based on what I'm reading on this thread... the New Apostolic Pentecostalism you guys are advocating for should meet the following criteria:

1.) One must have no emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. Emotion is dangerous.
2.) Question all impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings are dangerous.
3.) Don't contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture, and definitely don't speak them out loud. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) Don't breathe or relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is dangerous.
5.) Never use music as a tool to bring mind and spirit into harmony. Music is dangerous.
6.) Experiencing and enjoying the presence of God is strongly discouraged. Experiencing God is dangerous.
7.) There is no benefit in experiencing the presence of God. Benefiting from God's presence is dangerous.
8.) There is no benefit for experiencing the presence of God because we're not to experience anything. Experiences are dangerous.
9.) There is no power to be received or utilized through the Holy Spirit. Believing in such authority and power is dangerous.
10.) Any music outside of that written and performed by Apostolics who conform to these expectations is to be rejected. Non-Apostolic music is dangerous.
11.) Anything anyone does outside of this paradigm makes them a witch.
12.) Dancing, exuberant, emotion filled worship is silly and charismatic. Dancing, exuberance, and emotion filled worship is dangerous.

Essentially, the above is what I'm gathering here. I've been a born again Pentecostal for over 25 years. I can honestly say that there has never been a more anti-Apostolic Pentecostal position than the above. Yet those who would disagree are castigated as being the "witches".

[Amanah]

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Based on what I'm reading on this thread... the New Apostolic Pentecostalism you guys are advocating for should meet the following criteria:

1.) One must have no emotion or emotional response to music, prayer, or impressions from the Spirit. Emotion is dangerous.
2.) Question all impressions from the Holy Spirit that result from any state of worship or study of Scripture. Impressions and leadings are dangerous.
3.) Don't contemplate Scriptural truths, the divine names, or specific words or concepts of Scripture, and definitely don't speak them out loud. Contemplation is dangerous.
4.) Don't breathe or relax during prayer. Using breathing techniques to relax is dangerous.
5.) Never use music as a tool to bring mind and spirit into harmony. Music is dangerous.
6.) Experiencing and enjoying the presence of God is strongly discouraged. Experiencing God is dangerous.
7.) There is no benefit in experiencing the presence of God. Benefiting from God's presence is dangerous.
8.) There is no benefit for experiencing the presence of God because we're not to experience anything. Experiences are dangerous.
9.) There is no power to be received or utilized through the Holy Spirit. Believing in such authority and power is dangerous.
10.) Any music outside of that written and performed by Apostolics who conform to these expectations is to be rejected. Non-Apostolic music is dangerous.
11.) Anything anyone does outside of this paradigm makes them a witch.
12.) Dancing, exuberant, emotion filled worship is silly and charismatic. Dancing, exuberance, and emotion filled worship is dangerous.

Essentially, the above is what I'm gathering here. I've been a born again Pentecostal for over 25 years. I can honestly say that there has never been a more anti-Pentecostal position than the above.

That's a blatant mischaracterization of what's been said here.

In a nutshell it's this: worship isn't about the "feelz." It's not about music at all. It certainly isn't occult practices such as centering, contemplative prayer, soaking, burning candles or incense while mumbling a mantra.

#StopIt

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Since the 1990s there has been an increased focus on mysticism within various segments of Christianity. Bordering on the esoteric, these mystical experiences broaden the division between a "factual faith" and a "felt faith," and threaten to replace sound biblical teaching with emotion-driven response. Soaking prayer is one such mystical activity. It is described as resting in God's presence. This is accomplished by playing some gentle worship songs, either sitting or lying down, and praying short, simple prayers for an extended period of time, but otherwise keeping your mind free of other thoughts. At the point when you sense God's presence through some type of manifestation like tingling skin, a sensation of heat or cold, or even a gentle wind seemingly blowing through your body, you are to just "soak" in that presence.

Although that might sound a little strange to some, it does not immediately come across as being necessarily bad. However, the rule by which we measure our experiences in life is the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and when soaking prayer is examined accordingly, we find that it comes up wanting for biblical support. Nowhere in the Bible can a model of prayer be found that soaking prayer follows.

Prayer in its simplest form in the Bible is calling on the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), and in each instance where it is found in Scripture, it is descriptive of communicating with God. Soaking prayer starts that way, but quickly devolves into a trance-like meditative state. This is when soaking prayer ceases to be biblical and becomes more like a New Age practice or something an adherent of Hinduism would participate in.

There is no denying that experiencing the presence of God can be powerful and life changing. It is not the goal of soaking prayer that is biblically errant; it is its methodology. Soaking prayer focuses on obtaining a spiritual experience by seeking out the presence of God through mystical exercises. In this it is similar to ”contemplative prayer” and contemplative spirituality, which are equally unbiblical. Biblical prayer is talking to God with His will in mind (1 John 5:14). A biblically praying believer already understands that God's presence is always with him (Psalm 139:7; Matthew 28:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Timothy 1:14), and he doesn’t need to experience any type of physical sensation to prove it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soaking-prayer.html

Aquila doesn't care. You can find all the evidence you want showing it's rotten at the core, he'll just claim they were looking our way. Because, per him Pentecostals have always been mystics and performed contemplative and centering new age and occult junk.

[houston]

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo