"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Here's something to make you happy: If a minister claims that growing a beard is a sin, that is wrong. It's not scriptural.

Thank you! lol That's really all I wanted to know.

The original question you ask is whether it is false doctrine. What is false doctrine? First, define what is doctrine. Doctrine is a set of beliefs or teachings based on the Word of God. So false doctrine would be something which is contrary to the beliefs and teaching of the Word of God.

For example: it is biblical doctrine that a person must be born again. False doctrine would then be claiming that you don't need to be born again.

For there to be a claim of false doctrine, there must be a doctrine to begin with. There is no early church doctrine on beards that I have found. So I would answer that it is not false doctrine, but would agree that any minister who claims beards are a sin would be in error.

A doctrine is a teaching. There is biblical doctrine. There are also doctrines of men and doctrines of devils. A teaching stating that a beard is a sin that could cause one to lose their soul is clearly a false teaching, i.e., false doctrine.

Again, the churches I've visited/attended included beards in the dress code for ministry/platform. Most of those churches had men in attendance who wore beards. The Pastor of the UPC church I currently attend includes beards in its dress code for ministry/platform. It's a relatively small church (approx 70 or so) and there are a few men who attend who grow either a full beard or mustache. I asked him about it when I first began attending and was told he doesn't believe it to be a sin, only a preference for those in ministry.

I'm not "against" having a platform policy. Especially with regards to attire. But I do ask myself, why must there be two standards regarding beards? You admitted it yourself, there was never a set teaching about beards in Scripture. Why impose such a teaching at all? Essentially the pastor's platform policy would rule out ever allowing Jesus, Paul, Peter, and perhaps the other Apostles from being able to teach on the platform of your church. If the Word of God doesn't set any kind of precedent for drawing distinction between those who wear beards and those who don't, why would a pastor?

I'm suspecting that it has something to do with the norms and position of the organization. It's politics. If someone walks into the church, the platform better toe the line of the organization, else the pastor could be called on it. It's institutional pressure from men to conform to an outdated model frozen in time. Now, this could be good or bad. But it does show the power of an institution.

Also, as a bearded individual, it makes it sound like at best, your church is embarrassed to have us. As long as we don't wish to be on the platform, we're tolerated. It makes me a bit uncomfortable.

You're not understanding what I posted. The context was in regards to a Pastor adopting a dress code for ministry/platform. Don't try to twist this into something else.

A pastoral "dress code" (regarding attire) is biblical as long as it is grounded in the biblical principle of modesty. I don't believe beards should be included in "dress codes". Because I can't take off my beard and put it immediately back on. It isn't attire. It is a part of my body.

Shouldn't everything a pastor does be based on sound "biblical" principles and not his own wishes or the arbitrary opinions of man?

Wrong. You're twisting what I posted and taking it completely out of context.

Well, it certainly looked like you said that no Scriptural foundation was necessary for a pastor to impose a dress code. I mean, wouldn't that mean a pastor could command tinfoil hats, and you'd believe we have to obey it?

First, I'm surprised that you would be interested in attending an institutional church at all, what with your previous posts against them.

I've had to distance myself from the house church I was attending. They are not Apostolic and though they showed interest in the truth for a time, that time has passed. So, I'm looking around at local churches.

Second, how a person responds shows the condition of their heart. So when a man will shave without a word for the dress code of a secular business, but whine and throw a tantrum over a dress code for ministry in a local church - it shows a lot.

Big difference. A pastor has a sacred trust. His standards, beliefs, and teachings are expected to be grounded in Scripture. Now, I don't expect my chief to abide by Scripture. He's not a Christian, and our department isn't "Christian". It's secular. He can arbitrarily make any standard he chooses. But like I said, he doesn't have a sacred trust. The pastor does. We expect pastors to teach and require things grounded in Scripture, should we not?

As stated above, I agree that any minister who claims growing a beard is a sin is wrong. I do not believe it is the same as false doctrine, by simple definition.

I understand your reasoning. But I see doctrine as teaching. It can come from the Bible, men, tradition, and even devils. A teaching that isn't grounded on Scripture, that imposes a Scriptural punishment (like Hell) is definitely a "false doctrine".

Back to context. This is regarding dress code for men who wish to be involved in the ministry/platform. If the church I attended had a dress code stating I had to wear a tinfoil hat and purple polka dot suit to be used in the ministry/platform, I would find another church in which to minister.

See how easy that is?

It is easy. However, it's also troubling. Few Apostolic churches within my community and the surrounding area would welcome me, and none would allow me to sing in the choir (perhaps this is a positive), all because of my beard.

Modesty isn't only about a dress code.

True. I'm just focusing on modesty because it is a biblical practice with biblical principles.

That's untrue.

What if it is true, and you honestly don't realize it yet?

Which seems odd to me, considering the previous posts made against institutional churches.

I don't like institutional churches. But, I'd like to find someplace to attend.

[jediwill83]

Facial Hair=Pride

Refusing to admit you were wrong to preach a doctrine unsupported by scripture=pride?

Almost sounds like a parent refusing to admit they we're wrong when they seriously overstepped and are afraid that if they admit fallibility the reaction of the child will be to question everything and never obey so they just dig in their heels and double down.

You create this chaotic cognitive dissonance.

It's funny...the Pope was just quoted as saying that,"His word supercedes the Bible" when confronted about differences in scripture and Catholic doctrine...but I guess that's ok if we do that huh?

This isn't even a matter of "twisting" scripture...there is literally no scripture to twist.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Facial Hair=Pride

Refusing to admit you were wrong to preach a doctrine unsupported by scripture=pride?

Almost sounds like a parent refusing to admit they we're wrong when they seriously overstepped and are afraid that if they admit fallibility the reaction of the child will be to question everything and never obey so they just dig in their heels and double down.

You create this chaotic cognitive dissonance.

It's funny...the Pope was just quoted as saying that,"His word supercedes the Bible" when confronted about differences in scripture and Catholic doctrine...but I guess that's ok if we do that huh?

This isn't even a matter of "twisting" scripture...there is literally no scripture to twist.

No Facial Hair=effeminacy

Had a old brother in Labelle Florida explain to me without mincing his words about not having a beard. That you needed whiskers to get baptized in Jesus name. He also believed that the beard should never be cut, or trimmed. No he wasn't a Rasta. Any how, he pointed to Psalm 133:2 to show that having a beard meant you were anointed as a priest under Jesus name. 2 Samuel 10:4 was used to prove that a man without a beard was a shame, like a man having long uncut hair, or walking around with your pants down.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No Facial Hair=effeminacy

Had a old brother in Labelle Florida explain to me without mincing his words about not having a beard. That you needed whiskers to get baptized in Jesus name. He also believed that the beard should never be cut, or trimmed. No he wasn't a Rasta. Any how, he pointed to Psalm 133:2 to show that having a beard meant you were anointed as a priest under Jesus name. 2 Samuel 10:4 was used to prove that a man without a beard was a shame, like a man having long uncut hair, or walking around with your pants down.

I wouldn't say you need whiskers to get baptised.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wouldn't say you need whiskers to get baptised.

Thanks

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

or walking around with your pants down.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

This isn't even a matter of "twisting" scripture...there is literally no scripture to twist.

Ha ha ha, this is a great statement.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

.

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

Oh, the humanity!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

I'm not against platform guidelines. If you're in an institutional church, you might need them.

I've been house churching now for between 6 or seven years. We met in common clothes and never even had issue with facial hair. So, the entire platform performance dynamic didn't exist. We would pray, sing, pray more, sing. We'd share a meal, pass the bread and the cup. The elder would share a passage, some insight, and we'd discuss it. We'd confess sin and pray for one another. Often fellowship extended long after midnight, with kids crashed on couches and in the floor.

Anyone could bring a passage, insight, song, or poem. In Scott's house church, sometimes tongues and interpretation was present. Sometimes word of knowledge or word of wisdom. Sometimes we felt a healing anointing, and sought God for healing. We shared visions, dreams, and impressions we received from God. We talked about life, work, and people we were trying to reach.

The Sunday show is just not how I see church.