Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen
Ok in context of Hebrews 13:17 you present Ephesians 4:11-12. Now tell me who you are going to submit to if not this Pastor and use scripture to prove it... |
Okay. You are determined that the application of this scripture is spiritual. I believe it is not. I'm going to present some thoughts as to why I believe what I do.
There are some key words in the passage that I believe you have a twisted definition of, or perhaps they have different definitions and you are using them in the wrong context. These words are; rule (as in they that rule over you) and souls (they watch for your souls). I have these words in bold to make it as clear as possible what I am referring to.
Bible, King James Version
Heb.13
[17] Obey them that have the
rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your
souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
This may be tricky because I'm going to say what I think you believe (and most other apostolics) and then I'm going to juxtapose what I believe is really being said.
If I understand you position correctly (please feel free to say otherwise) you believe that the pastor (singular) is in authority over the local church. Furthermore he rules the church. Rules is a pretty strong word here, but it is the one used in the verse.
You further believe that the pastor is watching for my soul and yours. Soul according to YOUR definition is our immortal spirit that will live forever.
On the understanding that you have, which I hope I have accurately portrayed above, you believe that this scripture verse teaches me to submit to my pastor. Is this what you believe?
The problem I have with this doctrine is that it is in direct conflict with the words of Jesus that I quoted before. Allow me to post them again . . .
[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles
exercise dominion over them, and they that are great
exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you:
but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And
whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the
Son of man came
not to be ministered unto, but to
minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
I remind you that this is about exercising authority, or dominion, or as used in the scripture you are quoting, "rule" over them.
It is impossible to reconcile these two passages with the definition that you are giving the one in Hebrews. They are miles apart. They are not even close to being in harmony. Something HAS to be wrong.
There are two possibilities:
The Bible is contradicting itself. I believe that the Bible is consistent. I don't believe God speaks out of both sides of His mouth. I am going to rule this possibility as an impossibility.
The other possibility is that you (and most of Christianity) has misinterpreted the passage in Hebrews. This possibility is possible, and given the alternative (that the words of Jesus contradict Hebrews) I am going to say that this HAS to be the case.
I have studied this because it did appear to be a conflict. I looked to Strongs for definitions of the key words I mentioned earlier. Rule is a strong word. It means to: lead, for example to command (with official authority) figuratively to deem ie,
consider: account, (be) chief, count esteem , governor, rule over, suppose, think.
Rule is, according to Strongs describing a person of high official capacity. A governor?! I don't think this is referring to any spiritual capacity.
Watching for your souls is another part of the phrase that is misinterpreted in this passage. Souls in this context refers to our life. It does not refer to our spirit that will live eternally. When God breathed into Adam and he "became a living soul", this was referring to him becoming a live person. His life was in him. Many times the soul refers to lives in the Bible.
So when you consider the passage in the proper context, Obey they that have rule over you, means secular authority. Our equivalent would be the government. They watch for your souls; this means that they are to protect your very life. How they accomplish this may be through the military or law enforcement. They will be held accountable is self explanatory.
This is how I interpret these verses.
Hybrid Mode
