Saved Without A Pastor??

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think this is more or less accurate, when understood through the filter that there was no sole authority in any individual church, or even in the Council of Jerusalem. If you consider this meeting (that we have more or less dubbed the Council of Jerusalem) it is very similar to the church. While I have asked the question repeatedly, "who was the pastor of this church of that one in the New Testament church, nobody has been able to answer. I think it is pretty obvious to those of us that are active in this discussion that the leadership model for the NT church was a plurality of elders. The same seems to be true at Jerusalem. Who was the sole solitary leader? Some say Peter (the RCC certainly does) others say James. My point is that there is no solid scriptural evidence, either at the local church level, or the Hazelwood Missouri level.

James and Peter address Paul and Barnabas. James is definitely have a level of leadership of elder which gave him the ability to tell everyone to shema unto him, Acts 15:13-18. Submit yourself one unto another as far as ministry can only be achieved through ability. Not talking about how we are all brothers in the Lord. But eldership cannot operate when you are connected to full blown knuckleheads. Imagine you TM if you were in an eldership who were diametrically opposed to what you believe? You wouldn't be able to operate. Or if you were in a submit yourself one to another plurality of elders who were spiritually immature, or mentally immature, you would be greatly as restricted as being under a despot. Unless you walk a mile in another man's Tony Lamas you just can't imagine the actual difficulties of what we believe a doctrine "Should Be"

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

James and Peter address Paul and Barnabas. James is definitely have a level of leadership of elder which gave him the ability to tell everyone to shema unto him, Acts 15:13-18. Submit yourself one unto another as far as ministry can only be achieved through ability. Not talking about how we are all brothers in the Lord. But eldership cannot operate when you are connected to full blown knuckleheads. Imagine you TM if you were in an eldership who were diametrically opposed to what you believe? You wouldn't be able to operate. Or if you were in a submit yourself one to another plurality of elders who were spiritually immature, or mentally immature, you would be greatly as restricted as being under a despot. Unless you walk a mile in another man's Tony Lamas you just can't imagine the actual difficulties of what we believe a doctrine "Should Be"

I think the key is the Holy Ghost leading and guiding us unto all truth. Knuckleheads are not being led by the Holy Ghost. The example of Brother Phil White is an example (I believe) of something that could be remedied by a healthy dose of plural elder leadership. Think about this instruction from Paul, which is one of the other "two or three" comments that you don't hear that much about;

1Cor.14
[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge

I am not talking isolated scripture here. There are several examples of proceeding with caution and having reasoned, methodical, scripture basis for teaching and preaching. The snake handlers are an example of taking one passage and emphasizing it above others. (There is also a school of thought (mine) that believes that this may be where the tradition of running the backs of pews came from. Just kidding.)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think the key is the Holy Ghost leading and guiding us unto all truth. Knuckleheads are not being led by the Holy Ghost.

Bro, are you or ever been part of an collegial eldership?

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The example of Brother Phil White is an example (I believe) of something that could be remedied by a healthy dose of plural elder leadership. Think about this instruction from Paul, which is one of the other "two or three" comments that you don't hear that much about;

Are you, or have you ever been part of a collegial eldership? I live in a city where the most famous collegial leadership was founded? It was called the Shepherding Movement. It ended in disaster. Not saying that eldership cannot work, but Brother White has elders, people he has to answer to.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

1Cor.14
[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge

But I have never been to an Apostolic Church that didn't have this. Pastors have visiting ministers preach. At times more numerous then you could imagine.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I am not talking isolated scripture here. There are several examples of proceeding with caution and having reasoned, methodical, scripture basis for teaching and preaching. The snake handlers are an example of taking one passage and emphasizing it above others. (There is also a school of thought (mine) that believes that this may be where the tradition of running the backs of pews came from. Just kidding.)

Understandable, that's what we take the word wholistically

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, are you or ever been part of an collegial eldership?

No brother, I haven't.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you, or have you ever been part of a collegial eldership? I live in a city where the most famous collegial leadership was founded? It was called the Shepherding Movement. It ended in disaster. Not saying that eldership cannot work, but Brother White has elders, people he has to answer to.

The Church of Christ practices it. As far as I know that is the only organization that does. It seems to work for them, although I only have spoken to them about it, I've never attended their service.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

But I have never been to an Apostolic Church that didn't have this. Pastors have visiting ministers preach. At times more numerous then you could imagine.

I don't think I've ever been to an Apostolic Church where the preacher is sat down because another felt led to speak. I know it is not routine.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Understandable, that's what we take the word wholistically

Amen

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I don't think I've ever been to an Apostolic Church where the preacher is sat down because another felt led to speak. I know it is not routine.

Sounds like you've never been to an actual apostolic church.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sounds like you've never been to an actual apostolic church.

That's what I thought when I read it.

TM, do you attend an Apostolic Pentecostal church?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No brother, I haven't.

I know you might not accept what I'm going to say here, but working together with others isn't as what we would read on paper. the Apostle Paul had this to say about it to the young evangelist 2 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 4:10-16. He writes more about it to the Corinthian eldership 2 Corinthians 1:8. But working with elders, and experiencing all sorts of attitudes and latitudes when someone who has never rode a bull for 8 seconds it's hard to relay to them actually what it is like. I loved to watch bull riding. Watch it, mind you. I never got on one. I lived in Arcadia Florida and watched the rodeo. But when you walk up to a bull, and see its size, watch one jump straight up in a chute with a poor soul on its back holding only a rope. Well, brother, it is one sobering view. Would I climb on when I was given the offer?
No, I don't think so. Because there are so many levels to consider. Getting behind a pulpit, isn't the beginning, and it isn't the end. I know, I know, we hold all these scriptures in our hands and take off running, then slam them down on the pastor's office desk and shout "eureka" I found it. Well, that old bull rider sitting down behind that desk has wore out a lot of angry bulls. But a lot of angry bulls have done the same to him, his wife, and his children.

Like I said, I love watching bull riding, but I never rode one, and my time is long gone to ever try to.

Brothers, elders, pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists, apostles, missionaries have done some incredibly hard heavy lifting.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The Church of Christ practices it. As far as I know that is the only organization that does.

Church of Christless eldership would not be a Tithmister's cup of tea. Just from what little I have read of your posts. You wouldn't fly under their sky. Collegial leadership is in the church which holds the name PRESBYTERIANS. They my good brother are the worst as an example of colliegial eldership.

John Calvin roasted one of his ministers because the guy didn't believe in the trinity. Dr D James Kennedy my old ex neighbor here in Fort Lauderdale remained in the pulpit until he was half dead. Because he was a superstar, and they couldn't find a replacement. Listen bro, it all looks good on paper, it all looks great when we type our little fingers on our worn clean keyboards.
We sit back and say, buy that all sounds so good. But, putting it into practice? Well, that's another journey.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It seems to work for them, although I only have spoken to them about it, I've never attended their service.

Then there is the rub, so while the neighbors "seem" to be a wonderful loving family. The truth is that in their home, it is a Game Of Thrones. Everyone wants to sit on the Iron Throne. Holy Ghost has to be the one who runs everything. When they picked deacons it was that they were to find men filled with the Holy Ghost. Church of Christless doesn't believe there be any Holy Ghost. So, Tywin Lannister catches the arrow while he sits on the gabinetto.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's what I thought when I read it.

TM, do you attend an Apostolic Pentecostal church?

yes

Do you consider UPCI Apostolic?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

yes

Do you consider UPCI Apostolic?

I consider it the Church of the Sheaves for Christ, Mother's Day Memorial offerings, and the such. So, yes, the United Pentecostal Church International is as Apostolic as the KJV.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I know you might not accept what I'm going to say here, but working together with others isn't as what we would read on paper. the Apostle Paul had this to say about it to the young evangelist 2 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 4:10-16. He writes more about it to the Corinthian eldership 2 Corinthians 1:8. But working with elders, and experiencing all sorts of attitudes and latitudes when someone who has never rode a bull for 8 seconds it's hard to relay to them actually what it is like. I loved to watch bull riding. Watch it, mind you. I never got on one. I lived in Arcadia Florida and watched the rodeo. But when you walk up to a bull, and see its size, watch one jump straight up in a chute with a poor soul on its back holding only a rope. Well, brother, it is one sobering view. Would I climb on when I was given the offer?
No, I don't think so. Because there are so many levels to consider. Getting behind a pulpit, isn't the beginning, and it isn't the end. I know, I know, we hold all these scriptures in our hands and take off running, then slam them down on the pastor's office desk and shout "eureka" I found it. Well, that old bull rider sitting down behind that desk has wore out a lot of angry bulls. But a lot of angry bulls have done the same to him, his wife, and his children.

Like I said, I love watching bull riding, but I never rode one, and my time is long gone to ever try to.

Brothers, elders, pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists, apostles, missionaries have done some incredibly hard heavy lifting.





Church of Christless eldership would not be a Tithmister's cup of tea. Just from what little I have read of your posts. You wouldn't fly under their sky. Collegial leadership is in the church which holds the name PRESBYTERIANS. They my good brother are the worst as an example of colliegial eldership.

John Calvin roasted one of his ministers because the guy didn't believe in the trinity. Dr D James Kennedy my old ex neighbor here in Fort Lauderdale remained in the pulpit until he was half dead. Because he was a superstar, and they couldn't find a replacement. Listen bro, it all looks good on paper, it all looks great when we type our little fingers on our worn clean keyboards.
We sit back and say, buy that all sounds so good. But, putting it into practice? Well, that's another journey.



Then there is the rub, so while the neighbors "seem" to be a wonderful loving family. The truth is that in their home, it is a Game Of Thrones. Everyone wants to sit on the Iron Throne. Holy Ghost has to be the one who runs everything. When they picked deacons it was that they were to find men filled with the Holy Ghost. Church of Christless doesn't believe there be any Holy Ghost. So, Tywin Lannister catches the arrow while he sits on the gabinetto.

I know what you say here is true to a large extent. Colorfully and wonderfully spoken.

I probably understand more of what you've said than you realize too.