What's the difference?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is, watered down or not... it was wine. It contained alcohol. And it wasn't "sin" in and of itself. The "sin" was in allowing one's self to become drunken. So, one can drink wine watered down, or one can just limit themselves to one or two glasses of wine with dinner. Either way, effort is being taken not to become drunken. To say that the wine was a sin, in and of itself, merely because it had alcohol in it, is to essentially say that Jesus and others consumed watered down sin. This would mean that Jesus wasn't sinless. And that my friend, unravels the entire atonement.

Attention: During the Ancient Middle East everything was fermented from grapes, to goat milk.

During the Middle Ages in Europe animals were hung upside down and allowed to rot. This tenderized the meat through bacteria.

Kefir is middle eastern fermented milk, and the wines and vegetables were fermented. Jesus drank fermented grape wine. Yet, He would of never drank mixed wine, (as He was offered on the cross) or strong drink.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Attention: During the Ancient Middle East everything was fermented from grapes, to goat milk.

During the Middle Ages in Europe animals were hung upside down and allowed to rot. This tenderized the meat through bacteria.

Kefir is middle eastern fermented milk, and the wines and vegetables were fermented. Jesus drank fermented grape wine. Yet, He would of never drank mixed wine, (as He was offered on the cross) or strong drink.

Wouldn't that indicate that fermented drink isn't a "sin" in and of itself?

I firmly believe that a life of drunkenness is a sin. Those who are guilty of this sin are described in Scripture:

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. Christ's first miracle was at a wedding. A celebration. There was joy, laughter, dancing, rejoicing. And when the host ran out of wine, Jesus turned 120-180 gallons of water into the finest wine... just to keep the party going. There is no sin in such a celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions.

However, woe unto those who wake up early in the morning just to seek strong drink, and continuing drinking until evening, until wine inflame them. I know a man named John. He wakes up, has coffee, and then... he cracks open a beer. He'll drink all day long. He's clearly an alcoholic. He is abusive, isn't employed, and just a real lost soul. This is the sin the Bible is describing.

So, I don't see a "biblical" prohibition on drinking alcohol.

I do understand that back in the days of the Temperance Movement and Prohibition, the social climate was such that many churches preached against drinking alcohol, even in moderation. This was due to the widespread alcoholism in that society. I don't disagree with the pastors of that day teaching that Christians should abstain from alcohol. But what I do disagree with is the notion that the position is one drawn from Scripture, when it clearly isn't. I think pastors should be honest about these kinds of things. It's one thing for a pastor to explain to the congregation that due to some widespread circumstance, the church is going to choose to abstain for the sake of a clear Christian witness and to set an example for the society in question. Just be honest about it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Wouldn't that indicate that fermented drink isn't a "sin" in and of itself?

I firmly believe that a life of drunkenness is a sin. Those who are guilty of this sin are described in Scripture:

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. Christ's first miracle was at a wedding. A celebration. There was joy, laughter, dancing, rejoicing. And when the host ran out of wine, Jesus turned 120-180 gallons of water into the finest wine... just to keep the party going. There is no sin in such a celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions.

The ancients understood that wine was eternal life, because after and only after fermentation did she last forever. Hence the reason was wine used so much to show eternal life, or Jesus' eternal blood. The passover cup or communion couldn't be taken with unfermented grape juice, or crushed grapes into a cup. It would not symbolize the eternal blood of Christ.

Originally Posted by Aquila

However, woe unto those who wake up early in the morning just to seek strong drink, and continuing drinking until evening, until wine inflame them. I know a man named John. He wakes up, has coffee, and then... he cracks open a beer. He'll drink all day long. He's clearly an alcoholic. He is abusive, isn't employed, and just a real lost soul. This is the sin the Bible is describing.

Sorry, but beer can't be included in this discussion because it isn't relevant to what we are discussing. Beer would be under strong drink. But wine is something different. To be a winebibber is to be gluttonous over indulging. Jesus was excused of this because He was fasting around the religious of His time. He was eating and drinking. There is no sin for drinking fermented grape. Mixed, or strong drinks are yet another story.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, I don't see a "biblical" prohibition on drinking alcohol.

Because there isn't any.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do understand that back in the days of the Temperance Movement and Prohibition, the social climate was such that many churches preached against drinking alcohol, even in moderation.

Because of the damage it had done during that time. Temperance movement wasn't against alcohol per se, but against its effects. It was better to get rid of the stuff all together then have people learn to use it properly.

Originally Posted by Aquila

This was due to the widespread alcoholism in that society. I don't disagree with the pastors of that day teaching that Christians should abstain from alcohol. But what I do disagree with is the notion that the position is one drawn from Scripture, when it clearly isn't. I think pastors should be honest about these kinds of things. It's one thing for a pastor to explain to the congregation that due to some widespread circumstance, the church is going to choose to abstain for the sake of a clear Christian witness and to set an example for the society in question. Just be honest about it.

My church family knows the truth concerning alcohol, and they abstain because it doesn't look good. That is just good old social logic. Just like good Spock is clean shaven and evil spock has a beard.