Demons and the believer

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Almost sounds like the prince (and people?) of Tyre had a close connection with Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, and the Temple. Might explain David and Solomon's close connection with Hiram? Who were the people of Tyre?

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Asher had it's border near Zidon and Tyre:

Joshua 19:28-31 And Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, even unto great Zidon; (29) And then the coast turneth to Ramah, and to the strong city Tyre; and the coast turneth to Hosah; and the outgoings thereof are at the sea from the coast to Achzib: (30) Ummah also, and Aphek, and Rehob: twenty and two cities with their villages. (31) This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Asher according to their families, these cities with their villages.

The tribe of Zebulon was nearby, and was a maritime tribe to boot:

Genesis 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

Looks highly possible that the Tyrians had plenty of connections to Israel. One of their kings was at least half-Israelite and helped build the Temple. So it is possible that the prince of Tyre spoken about by Ezekiel may have had a connection to the Temple worship, and may even have been (at least partial) Israelite. This might explain some of the statements Ezekiel makes about him as if he were in Zion, at the Temple, etc.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Asher had it's border near Zidon and Tyre:

Joshua 19:28-31 And Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, even unto great Zidon; (29) And then the coast turneth to Ramah, and to the strong city Tyre; and the coast turneth to Hosah; and the outgoings thereof are at the sea from the coast to Achzib: (30) Ummah also, and Aphek, and Rehob: twenty and two cities with their villages. (31) This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Asher according to their families, these cities with their villages.

The tribe of Zebulon was nearby, and was a maritime tribe to boot:

Genesis 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

Looks highly possible that the Tyrians had plenty of connections to Israel. One of their kings was at least half-Israelite and helped build the Temple. So it is possible that the prince of Tyre spoken about by Ezekiel may have had a connection to the Temple worship, and may even have been (at least partial) Israelite. This might explain some of the statements Ezekiel makes about him as if he were in Zion, at the Temple, etc.

I must admit, that is very interesting. But I'd need more evidence before assuming it is truth. However, this does open the door to possibilities.

I was always told he was a pagan king.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

Yes, because if he still was a Phoenician pagan he would already die the death of the uncircumcised. Cherubs are creatures, which have six wings, or the body of animals, or heads of animals. The whole Ezekiel 28:1-19 gets convoluted as they skip everything referring to the actual king, to dive into everything which meets with their agenda. If Satan was a worship leader, and the most beautiful angel, we would see the story somewhere in Genesis, or the other books of Torah. Yet, that isn't the case. Yet, still waiting for someone to show how the Bible says that Satan was once the most beautiful angel who was the chief worship leader.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yes, because if he still was a Phoenician pagan he would already die the death of the uncircumcised. Cherubs are creatures, which have six wings, or the body of animals, or heads of animals. The whole Ezekiel 28:1-19 gets convoluted as they skip everything referring to the actual king, to dive into everything which meets with their agenda. If Satan was a worship leader, and the most beautiful angel, we would see the story somewhere in Genesis, or the other books of Torah. Yet, that isn't the case. Yet, still waiting for someone to show how the Bible says that Satan was once the most beautiful angel who was the chief worship leader.

I disagree with the emboldened. God can reveal the secret things of eternity in any manner he chooses. In addition, God can choose to reveal something in only one place of Scripture, and it is no less valid just because it isn't mentioned anywhere else. Remember, the OT is an incomplete revelation. It is often delivered from the perspectives of the human prophets who prophesied for the LORD. And unless the LORD revealed something specific to them regarding spiritual realities, the prophets would have a vague, or non-existent, expression of that truth. Now, with the NT we have the Holy Spirit being very active, revealing more truth, and we have Jesus, God Himself in flesh, revealing even yet more and greater truth.

Therefore, the entire OT could be ignorant of Satan's existence... and yet Christ reveal Satan as a more personal being. We have to embrace the greater light of the NT and interpret the OT in this light. Not look at the vagueness of the OT, and impose that vagueness on the NT.

Those are just some of my thoughts on this. If you disagree, no biggie. I'm not going to say you're not saved or that you don't know God or anything. We're all down here working together to sort a lot of this out. And so, as iron sharpens iron, so to do we add to one another in ways we're often never aware of.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

1 Kings 7:13-14

He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Which indicates that Hiram was of Naphtali through his father, and his mother was of the daughters of Dan.

Now I personally have a pretty low opinion of the works of Josephus. But here is something he wrote concerning Hiram king of Tyre. But it is interesting what he wrote concerning hiram's father. Also according to (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki) Rashi, his mother was from Dan and his father was from Naphtali.

[76] Now Solomon sent for an artificer out of Tyre, whose name was Hiram; he was by birth of the tribe of Naphtali, on the mother's side, (for she was of that tribe,) but his father was Ur, of the stock of the Israelites. This man was skillful in all sorts of work; but his chief skill lay in working in gold, and silver, and brass; by whom were made all the mechanical works about the temple, according to the will of Solomon. Moreover, this Hiram made two [hollow] pillars, whose outsides were of brass, and the thickness of the brass was four fingers' breadth, and the height of the pillars was eighteen cubits and their circumference twelve cubits; but there was cast with each of their chapiters lily-work that stood upon the pillar, and it was elevated five cubits, round about which there was net-work interwoven with small palms, made of brass, and covered the lily-work. To this also were hung two hundred pomegranates, in two rows. The one of these pillars he set at the entrance of the porch on the right hand, and called it Jachin 1 and the other at the left hand, and called it Booz.




Another thing which should be pointed out is the reason why it is spoken that he was covered in precious stones, silver, and gold. Because that it what he did. He was a fabricator of gold, jewels, silver, brass, woodworking.