BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Explain how you would oppose a social order founded on obedience to Christ alone while "preaching obedience to Christ alone"? That makes no sense. Does obedience to Christ alone mean that we should oppose the criminalization of robbery, rape, murder? That we should stand against the idea of people looking to the Bible for guidance?

Absurd.

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

So, because men are wicked and corrupt, we should seek that form of society devised by men, instead of that devised by God?

[Esaias]

Here is a trinitarian, Reformed theonomist answer to the charge "Theonomy doesn't work". If you can ignore the two virtue signals to trinitarian dogma, you may be able to understand what the "push for theonomy" has accomplished, and is accomplishing.

https://chalcedon.edu/magazine/what-...ng-of-gods-law

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, because men are wicked and corrupt, we should seek that form of society devised by men, instead of that devised by God?

No, because humanity is fallen and corruption is in its nature, gooberment is a necessary evil, and shoild be limited as much as possible. Unless God himself is in charge- failure and tyranny will result.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

No, because humanity is fallen and corruption is in its nature, gooberment is a necessary evil, and shoild be limited as much as possible. Unless God himself is in charge- failure and tyranny will result.

What "necessary" purpose does government serve? Who instituted it, and why?

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What "necessary" purpose does government serve? Who instituted it, and why?

Generally common defense for a community, arbitration of disputes, and policing for safety. There is no need for the first, except the hunan tendancy to clique up in groups. And then to agress against those that are either weaker or in possession of more. A tendancy used by politicians, that play class warfare games, to gain power.
A christian would assume that God instituted government, as God is a god of order. Anarchy implies a lack of order, and would thus be at odds with godly ideals.

That God instituted a thing for humans to do, in no way implies they will do it right. Hence why limits should be broad and far reaching on whatever one is in charge.

It strikes me as completely inane to celebrate the three hebrew guys tossed in a furnace, and at the same time demand allegiance to scaps of cloth, and songs sung in adoration of state.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Generally common defense for a community, arbitration of disputes, and policing for safety. ...
A christian would assume that God instituted government, as God is a god of order.

If God instituted government, then government ought to be organized according to His Word.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

You do realize that God's law provides no penalty for facial hair decisions, and some other issues we debate here, right? Debate, discussion, etc are necessary and good. Political debates over interpretation and application of law occur all the time anyway.

Just about every charge against theonomy can be also levied against practically every other system of law and ethics. And that way lies Nietzsche and Ragnar Redbeard and Thrasymachus.

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You do realize that God's law provides no penalty for facial hair decisions, and some other issues we debate here, right? Debate, discussion, etc are necessary and good. Political debates over interpretation and application of law occur all the time anyway.

Just about every charge against theonomy can be also levied against practically every other system of law and ethics. And that way lies Nietzsche and Ragnar Redbeard and Thrasymachus.

Every charge against any government will eventually be proven correct, unless of course God has absolute control of it.

Whose theology do you choose to enforce, lets assume you are actually a nice guy, with a great attitude guided by Christ, when you die, who will replace you, do you honestly trust he has your kids best interest in mind - not his own. "We will use only biblical constructs"- awesome....but one says the scripture says nay, where another says yea, evident even within our existing church governments which unevenly, and in classic human fail mode eventually end up with a church split, worship war, or.....whateva

I can see how some of the more pastor pedestal-ing folk round here would be fine with their idea of a fire-brand, "women outta keep their place, dadburn alcahol drinkers, and people that like anything other than 4/4 time in the key of C, cause it dont use them evil black keys on th pianny, kinda music, why they is splittin hell wide open along with anyone that disagrees with us 4 and no more on anything from suits ta playin spoons on th poach" - cause that is what some of them love, evidenced by the responses here......

You really want them in charge of guys trained to follow orders, with guns, in charge of your life.

Batguano crazy - but hey. Sure why not, .....in any case it will still result in eventual civil/open war, a breif period of actual freedom, before the decent into some form of human madness, possible genocide, and wackery of epic proportion-

rinse/repeat.

No government of man is worthy of respect, for long.
No manmade construct of organization will remain free of corruption, for long.

Only God is perfect, thus only a govenment guided by himself will remain even good for any length of time.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Every charge against any government will eventually be proven correct, unless of course God has absolute control of it.

Whose theology do you choose to enforce, lets assume you are actually a nice guy, with a great attitude guided by Christ, when you die, who will replace you, do you honestly trust he has your kids best interest in mind - not his own. "We will use only biblical constructs"- awesome....but one says the scripture says nay, where another says yea, evident even within our existing church governments which unevenly, and in classic human fail mode eventually end up with a church split, worship war, or.....whateva

I can see how some of the more pastor pedestal-ing folk round here would be fine with their idea of a fire-brand, "women outta keep their place, dadburn alcahol drinkers, and people that like anything other than 4/4 time in the key of C, cause it dont use them evil black keys on th pianny, kinda music, why they is splittin hell wide open along with anyone that disagrees with us 4 and no more on anything from suits ta playin spoons on th poach" - cause that is what some of them love, evidenced by the responses here......

You really want them in charge of guys trained to follow orders, with guns, in charge of your life.

Batguano crazy - but hey. Sure why not, .....in any case it will still result in eventual civil/open war, a breif period of actual freedom, before the decent into some form of human madness, possible genocide, and wackery of epic proportion-

rinse/repeat.

No government of man is worthy of respect, for long.
No manmade construct of organization will remain free of corruption, for long.

Only God is perfect, thus only a govenment guided by himself will remain even good for any length of time.

So, again, it seems like you are saying because men are imperfect, society should be guided by manmade philosophy without regard to the Bible.

Can you at least see how absurd that sounds?