UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

Apostolic1ness · #1 05-21-2019, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman

With most UPC churches in my area of the woods the pastor may be conservative but the congregation as whole isn't necessarily per the UPC manual. My guess is the pastors don't have watch dogs reporting back them like a typical CON church. They are fairly open about attending movies, sports, etc. without fear of being put out to pasture.

More like the Pastor dont have the guts to preach and enforce what he preaches.

watch dogs? pshhhh more like a dumb dog that cant bark.

Ehud · #2 05-21-2019, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

More like the Pastor dont have the guts to preach and enforce what he preaches.

watch dogs? pshhhh more like a dumb dog that cant bark.

So it's the pastor's fault if the entire congregation doesn't abide by the manual?

Apostolic1ness · #3 05-21-2019, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehud

So it's the pastor's fault if the entire congregation doesn't abide by the manual?

The scenario was the Pastor is conservative and the Church as a whole was not.
It has been me experience that if the Pastor would preach and enforce conservative values then the Church would obey, at least a majority.

Ehud · #4 05-21-2019, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The scenario was the Pastor is conservative and the Church as a whole was not.
It has been me experience that if the Pastor would preach and enforce conservative values then the Church would obey, at least a majority.

Well, it's hard to argue experiences, and I certainly have no intention of doing so, but that has not been mine. Thank you for the response though!

derAlte · #5 05-21-2019, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehud

Well, it's hard to argue experiences, and I certainly have no intention of doing so, but that has not been mine. Thank you for the response though!

It has been my observation over the years that discipling folks is a process that for some, can take many years. Most churches worth their salt have people in all sorts of different places in their walk with God. The only thing that will cause the internalization of a Biblical holiness lifestyle is exposure to the Word of God. One cannot force feed steak down a baby's throat without killing it.

If folks live conservative holiness standards out of fear of the pastor or the disapproval of the congregation, then they are simply conforming and not believing. It's just an empty show. A patient, faithful, loving and longsuffering pastor, through steady preaching and teaching can make a real difference in people's lives. But it takes time.

Many blowhards have gotten in pulpits and destroyed the future of countless spiritual babies, when time and gentleness and repeated exposure to the inspired truth of the Word of God would have eventually won them over. Don't get me wrong, there is always a time and place for straight and true preaching done with love and longsuffering. But some of these blowhards are more interested in bragging to their buddies how they worked the congregation over. For some, it is their fallen human nature manifesting itself. They are naturally mean and vicious people who enjoy verbally beating someone up and think because they are preaching, it is OK. In some circles, this is encouraged. Some of these guys genuinely think they are doing God a service but are actually unwisely using the Word to kill instead of build up.

Maybe it's the part of the country where I live, but pastors here are no more able to "force" folks to live conservative holiness standards than the man in the moon. I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

What I'm trying to get across here is that just because a congregation may not be 100% in compliance with what the pastor stands for doesn't mean he's not doing his job. Cut the poor man some slack and give him the time he needs to work with people. Some folks will never comply and good churches usually have a mixed multitude of people hanging around for whatever reason. But as the pastor obeys and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost, he may just get some folks to willingly come around to living a Biblical lifestyle.

Ehud · #6 05-21-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derAlte

It has been my observation over the years that discipling folks is a process that for some, can take many years. Most churches worth their salt have people in all sorts of different places in their walk with God. The only thing that will cause the internalization of a Biblical holiness lifestyle is exposure to the Word of God. One cannot force feed steak down a baby's throat without killing it.

If folks live conservative holiness standards out of fear of the pastor or the disapproval of the congregation, then they are simply conforming and not believing. It's just an empty show. A patient, faithful, loving and longsuffering pastor, through steady preaching and teaching can make a real difference in people's lives. But it takes time.

Many blowhards have gotten in pulpits and destroyed the future of countless spiritual babies, when time and gentleness and repeated exposure to the inspired truth of the Word of God would have eventually won them over. Don't get me wrong, there is always a time and place for straight and true preaching done with love and longsuffering. But some of these blowhards are more interested in bragging to their buddies how they worked the congregation over. For some, it is their fallen human nature manifesting itself. They are naturally mean and vicious people who enjoy verbally beating someone up and think because they are preaching, it is OK. In some circles, this is encouraged. Some of these guys genuinely think they are doing God a service but are actually unwisely using the Word to kill instead of build up.

Maybe it's the part of the country where I live, but pastors here are no more able to "force" folks to live conservative holiness standards than the man in the moon. I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

What I'm trying to get across here is that just because a congregation may not be 100% in compliance with what the pastor stands for doesn't mean he's not doing his job. Cut the poor man some slack and give him the time he needs to work with people. Some folks will never comply and good churches usually have a mixed multitude of people hanging around for whatever reason. But as the pastor obeys and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost, he may just get some folks to willingly come around to living a Biblical lifestyle.

The highlighted portions are *much* more in line with my own experiences.

n david · #7 05-21-2019, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derAlte

It has been my observation over the years that discipling folks is a process that for some, can take many years. Most churches worth their salt have people in all sorts of different places in their walk with God. The only thing that will cause the internalization of a Biblical holiness lifestyle is exposure to the Word of God. One cannot force feed steak down a baby's throat without killing it.

If folks live conservative holiness standards out of fear of the pastor or the disapproval of the congregation, then they are simply conforming and not believing. It's just an empty show. A patient, faithful, loving and longsuffering pastor, through steady preaching and teaching can make a real difference in people's lives. But it takes time.

Many blowhards have gotten in pulpits and destroyed the future of countless spiritual babies, when time and gentleness and repeated exposure to the inspired truth of the Word of God would have eventually won them over. Don't get me wrong, there is always a time and place for straight and true preaching done with love and longsuffering. But some of these blowhards are more interested in bragging to their buddies how they worked the congregation over. For some, it is their fallen human nature manifesting itself. They are naturally mean and vicious people who enjoy verbally beating someone up and think because they are preaching, it is OK. In some circles, this is encouraged. Some of these guys genuinely think they are doing God a service but are actually unwisely using the Word to kill instead of build up.

Maybe it's the part of the country where I live, but pastors here are no more able to "force" folks to live conservative holiness standards than the man in the moon. I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

What I'm trying to get across here is that just because a congregation may not be 100% in compliance with what the pastor stands for doesn't mean he's not doing his job. Cut the poor man some slack and give him the time he needs to work with people. Some folks will never comply and good churches usually have a mixed multitude of people hanging around for whatever reason. But as the pastor obeys and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost, he may just get some folks to willingly come around to living a Biblical lifestyle.

Antipas · #8 05-21-2019, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derAlte

It has been my observation over the years that discipling folks is a process that for some, can take many years. Most churches worth their salt have people in all sorts of different places in their walk with God. The only thing that will cause the internalization of a Biblical holiness lifestyle is exposure to the Word of God. One cannot force feed steak down a baby's throat without killing it.

If folks live conservative holiness standards out of fear of the pastor or the disapproval of the congregation, then they are simply conforming and not believing. It's just an empty show. A patient, faithful, loving and longsuffering pastor, through steady preaching and teaching can make a real difference in people's lives. But it takes time.

Many blowhards have gotten in pulpits and destroyed the future of countless spiritual babies, when time and gentleness and repeated exposure to the inspired truth of the Word of God would have eventually won them over. Don't get me wrong, there is always a time and place for straight and true preaching done with love and longsuffering. But some of these blowhards are more interested in bragging to their buddies how they worked the congregation over. For some, it is their fallen human nature manifesting itself. They are naturally mean and vicious people who enjoy verbally beating someone up and think because they are preaching, it is OK. In some circles, this is encouraged. Some of these guys genuinely think they are doing God a service but are actually unwisely using the Word to kill instead of build up.

Maybe it's the part of the country where I live, but pastors here are no more able to "force" folks to live conservative holiness standards than the man in the moon. I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

What I'm trying to get across here is that just because a congregation may not be 100% in compliance with what the pastor stands for doesn't mean he's not doing his job. Cut the poor man some slack and give him the time he needs to work with people. Some folks will never comply and good churches usually have a mixed multitude of people hanging around for whatever reason. But as the pastor obeys and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost, he may just get some folks to willingly come around to living a Biblical lifestyle.

Amen. Most who criticize pastors have no idea what it takes to pastor. I agree, there are abusive pastors. But I think most pastors are doing their best. They are only flesh and blood like the rest of us.

You mentioned something I had a pastor mention to me. You wrote...

Quote:

I'm told folks were more "obedient" in the past. Times have changed and it ain't that way now.

The pastor who I was talking to mentioned this. However, he was really understanding. He said that "past generations" tended to believe what you told them and trusted that the pastor was God's man. And so, they were more obedient in a sense. However, more recent generations have grown up with charlatan televangelists, fakes, frauds, and cults. They crave authenticity, are less trusting and want firm biblical grounds for a directive, and become greatly troubled when given a directive without a reason they can wrap their heads around. He said that as troublesome as it might be, it's like a self-defense mindset. This can be especially troublesome for pastors and their families who have gotten used to more compliant generations. The pastor emphasized that while the message cannot change, perhaps the methods of delivery, and approach might have to differ. The most challenging task is getting people to embrace standards that are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture.

I'm not a pastor. I know my heart goes out to them. Their calling is not an easy one.

Ehud · #9 05-21-2019, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

Amen. Most who criticize pastors have no idea what it takes to pastor. I agree, there are abusive pastors. But I think most pastors are doing their best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

The pastor emphasized that while the message cannot change, perhaps the methods of delivery, and approach might have to differ.

Could not agree more with either of these statements.

n david · #10 05-21-2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The scenario was the Pastor is conservative and the Church as a whole was not.
It has been me experience that if the Pastor would preach and enforce conservative values then the Church would obey, at least a majority.

What is the Pastor supposed to do? Raid homes to check for TVs? Stake out theaters or pools to make sure congregants aren't breaking his rules?

Preach the Gospel.