Be Perfect Be Pure

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Antipas

How would one know they had truly attained perfection?

There are 2 kinds of perfection. Sinless perfection and then growth to the full stature of Christ.

Sinless perfection is more about "maintaining" than "attaining".

When one is born again they are perfect. Not one sin is held against them. As long as they don't commit a sin they will continue to be perfect. IF they would sin they are no longer perfect.

If they truly repent they are perfect again. They have no sin in their life.

If there is no sin in ones life they are are perfect in context of "sinless perfection".

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There are 2 kinds of perfection. Sinless perfection and then growth to the full stature of Christ.

Sinless perfection is more about "maintaining" than "attaining".

When one is born again they are perfect. Not one sin is held against them. As long as they don't commit a sin they will continue to be perfect. IF they would sin they are no longer perfect.

If they truly repent they are perfect again. They have no sin in their life.

If there is no sin in ones life they are are perfect in context of "sinless perfection".

Okay, I think I understand you.

In the context of "sinless perfection", how does one know they aren't sinning? For example... I had a ham and swiss sandwich last night. Have I sinned? Occasionally I wear poly-knit clothing, am I in sin? I don't really keep any "holy days", I might give a nod to their cultural significance, but that's it. I believe that everyday is holy unto the Lord. So, I don't keep the OT sabbaths, feast days, or festivals. I've entertained sabbath keeping, but the Holy Spirit kept pushing me into deeper waters and convicting me that the rest of the sabbath was symbolic type and shadow of our rest in Christ. So, I look at keeping any day as a "holiday" of sorts as merely a cultural thing wherein I can take it or leave it. Would this be "sin"? If I had a brother, and he died without having a child to continue his name, must I marry his wife and raise children up in his name? Because in the OT, it was a rather serious sin not to. God struck Onan dead for refusing to sire a child in his brother's name. If one wishes to really "think" about this... there could be dozens, if not hundreds, of questions like these.

I'm thinking that with a doctrine as exacting as sinless perfection, we need what is and what is not "sin" firmly established. Can you list exactly what is sin for a NT believer?

I ask this because it is one thing to say "one must be perfect" and have a bunch of people grunting along in agreement with you while sitting aside a campfire. It's entirely another to define it for practical application that can be readily understood and lived out. This is because everyone grunting in agreement might have different views on what is meant when you say "sinless perfection". And without it specified clearly, I imagine your view would see many souls lost due to people simply not knowing what is and is not sin under the New Covenant.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Okay, I think I understand you.

In the context of "sinless perfection", how does one know they aren't sinning? For example... I had a ham and swiss sandwich last night. Have I sinned? Occasionally I wear poly-knit clothing, am I in sin? I don't really keep any "holy days", I might give a nod to their cultural significance, but that's it. I believe that everyday is holy unto the Lord. So, I don't keep the OT sabbaths, feast days, or festivals. I've entertained sabbath keeping, but the Holy Spirit kept pushing me into deeper waters and convicting me that the rest of the sabbath was symbolic type and shadow of our rest in Christ. So, I look at keeping any day as a "holiday" of sorts as merely a cultural thing wherein I can take it or leave it. Would this be "sin"? If I had a brother, and he died without having a child to continue his name, must I marry his wife and raise children up in his name? Because in the OT, it was a rather serious sin not to. God struck Onan dead for refusing to sire a child in his brother's name. If one wishes to really "think" about this... there could be dozens, if not hundreds, of questions like these.

I'm thinking that with a doctrine as exacting as sinless perfection, we need what is and what is not "sin" firmly established. Can you list exactly what is sin for a NT believer?

I ask this because it is one thing to say "one must be perfect" and have a bunch of people grunting along in agreement with you while sitting aside a campfire. It's entirely another to define it for practical application that can be readily understood and lived out. This is because everyone grunting in agreement might have different views on what is meant when you say "sinless perfection". And without it specified clearly, I imagine your view would see many souls lost due to people simply not knowing what is and is not sin under the New Covenant.

Chris, I am assuming people reading this are New Covenant believers. Most of your large paragraph deals with the law of Moses. You can eliminate some things such as those with the simple revelation that we are not under Moses law.

As to what is sin in the New Covenant, a disciple of Jesus with a Bible can find out when he gets serious with Gods word. There are various lists of sins given by the Apostles. We can be sure if we are violating them our walk is not perfect.

Here is one list you can start with.

1 Cor. 6:9-10

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

When I as a new convert saw verses like this I realized these were considered sin by God and he would not be pleased if I continued in them. So yes Jesus does teach us what is sin.

It does behoove us if indeed we be his disciples to spend time in his word and soon we will be hiding it in our heart so we wont sin against him.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Chris the Quaker Universalist

Okay, I think I understand you.

In the context of "sinless perfection", how does one know they aren't sinning? For example... I had a ham and swiss sandwich last night. Have I sinned?

Yes.

Occasionally I wear poly-knit clothing, am I in sin?

Poly-knit? What is that? The law forbids linsey-woolsey to the general population, because of its connection to the priesthood.

I don't really keep any "holy days", I might give a nod to their cultural significance, but that's it. I believe that everyday is holy unto the Lord. So, I don't keep the OT sabbaths, feast days, or festivals. I've entertained sabbath keeping, but the Holy Spirit kept pushing me into deeper waters and convicting me that the rest of the sabbath was symbolic type and shadow of our rest in Christ. So, I look at keeping any day as a "holiday" of sorts as merely a cultural thing wherein I can take it or leave it. Would this be "sin"?

Yes. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. One of the "Big Ten".

If I had a brother, and he died without having a child to continue his name, must I marry his wife and raise children up in his name? Because in the OT, it was a rather serious sin not to. God struck Onan dead for refusing to sire a child in his brother's name. If one wishes to really "think" about this... there could be dozens, if not hundreds, of questions like these.

Levirate marriage is an interesting issue, and there has been a 2500 year old debate about the built in torah contradiction concerning it. As for "dozens... hundreds of questions like these" followers of Jesus are "disciples" which means "students". There is no end to study of God's Word, it is our lifelong profession. But, most dont want to study, they want cut and dried simple answers that do not require prayer and thought.

I'm thinking that with a doctrine as exacting as sinless perfection, we need what is and what is not "sin" firmly established. Can you list exactly what is sin for a NT believer?

Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

I ask this because it is one thing to say "one must be perfect" and have a bunch of people grunting along in agreement with you while sitting aside a campfire. It's entirely another to define it for practical application that can be readily understood and lived out. This is because everyone grunting in agreement might have different views on what is meant when you say "sinless perfection". And without it specified clearly, I imagine your view would see many souls lost due to people simply not knowing what is and is not sin under the New Covenant.

Unless there's Cheerios at the campfire?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes.



Poly-knit? What is that? The law forbids linsey-woolsey to the general population, because of its connection to the priesthood.



Yes. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. One of the "Big Ten".



Levirate marriage is an interesting issue, and there has been a 2500 year old debate about the built in torah contradiction concerning it. As for "dozens... hundreds of questions like these" followers of Jesus are "disciples" which means "students". There is no end to study of God's Word, it is our lifelong profession. But, most dont want to study, they want cut and dried simple answers that do not require prayer and thought.



Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).



Unless there's Cheerios at the campfire?

Ahhhhhh! Chris the Quaker Universalist!!!!!

Cheerios at the campfire and lots of medical marijuana.