Gay people in Church

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Chan

To fail to trust them is to treat them with distrust because you are withholding your trust from them.

The Bible doesn't command me to trust everyone. I have to love everyone, but I don't have to trust them. I can love them and not trust them.

No, I took it in its context and it is still reflective of an attitude of the heart.

Ah, so you are the expert on the attitude of my heart.....

A general statement made in the context of a thread that was originally about homosexuals but that ignorant people here have changed to include pedophiles.

I'm not one of those people.

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

The Bible doesn't command me to trust everyone. I have to love everyone, but I don't have to trust them. I can love them and not trust them.

Distrust is not an act of love.

Ah, so you are the expert on the attitude of my heart.....

It doesn't take an expert to know that what you had said was indeed reflective of an attitude of the heart.

I'm not one of those people.

I didn't say you were!

[Subdued]

Originally Posted by Chan

Distrust is not an act of love.



It doesn't take an expert to know that what you had said was indeed reflective of an attitude of the heart.



I didn't say you were!

Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?

[OP_Carl]

So, you're saying that they can never really be welcomed into the body of Christ? Where does the BIBLE say you have to do this? I get so sick of the evil hearts in so many Christians today that insist on NOT TRUSTING GOD TO CHANGE SINNERS!!!!

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.

I doubt that you agree because of what you said at the beginning of your post!

At least this helps me to understand you a little better.

Yes, and you obviously don't trust God to break the pattern. Another old pattern that dies hard is the sinful nature that every human has. Should we all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)?

Yes.

The mainstream presentation of homosexuals is that of witty, successful, and monogamous people.

Many do present themselves that way, just as many heterosexuals do.

The truth is a little more seedy.

Just like for heterosexuals.

Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.

What PROOF do you have of this? Where is the evidence that there are more children molested by adults of the same sex than by adults of the opposite sex? Also, if it's prepubescent children being molested then the perpetrators are not of either heterosexual or homosexual orientation, they are of pedophile orientation, meaning that they have a sexual/romantic attraction to prepubescent children.

The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.

The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.

No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them).

I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.

Nonsense!!!! You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.

How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?

NEITHER HETEROSEXUALS NOR HOMOSEXUALS ARE ATTRACTED TO PREPUBESCENT CHILDREN, PEDOPHILES ARE!!!!

I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.

Cross-dressers ARE transvestites! More proof that you don't know what you're talking about. And if it's a man dressed as a woman in the ladies room looking at someone's teen daughter with a man's eyes, the man is a heterosexual (like a great many cross-dressers).

Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.

The solution is simple: repent of the wickedness that is in your heart, let God be God, and receive into His body those whom He has forgiven!

You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:

Churches should have plans in place to deal with this, in the interest of protecting the children and the corporate liability for crimes that take place on church property where negligence can be proved.

Don't give me that "protecting the children" garbage!!!! You're basically saying that even though God forgives certain sinners we will continue to treat them as if they're still in their sin and as if God has not forgiven them! This attitude of yours is just plain evil because you slap God in the face and say to Him, "You can forgive anyone you want but don't expect us to treat them as forgiven."
:
Are you going to sacrifice your children's safety, health, purity, and possible future salvation in the interests of not offending a sexual deviant? In the interests of not interrupting their spiritual journey, hoping that this season of repentance will be the final one?

Translation: it doesn't matter that God has forgiven their sin and started a healing work in them, our job is to treat them with contempt and suspicion, never really welcoming them into the body of Christ.

There is a reason child molesters are stealthy and secretive: they know that even Holy-Ghost-filled preachers can become stone-cold triggermen when they find out somebody has been messing with their kids.

You do realize that this thread is about HOMOSEXUALS and NOT PEDOPHILES, don't you?

Here is the trouble:

1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.

2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.

3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.

4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.

5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.


I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!

If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6

The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.


I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.

Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.

At least this helps me to understand you a little better.


Yes.


Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.

The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.

The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.

I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.

How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?

I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.

Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.

You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:



Here is the trouble:

1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.

2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.

3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.

4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.

5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.


I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!

If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6

The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.


I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.

Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.

Excellent points.

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, here. Christianity has a problem with too much acceptance of sin, and not enough excommunication. Not the other way around.

But no one here is saying to accept sin. What's being said is that if someone has come to faith in Christ then we are to receive that person as a brother or sister in Christ and NOT to treat them with suspicion and, thereby, holding them at arm's length.

At least this helps me to understand you a little better.

I doubt that very much.

Yes.

You really believe that we should all be going around watching each other to make sure that we're all "allowing" God to change us (as if He needs our permission)? Where does the Bible tell us to be suspicious of each other like this?

Where? The mainstream of our society and our media glorify the first, and actively seek to discredit the institutions of the second.

It sounds to me like in your little world there aren't very many homosexuals.

The statistics are uncovered in The marketing of evil by David Kupelian. I recommend it.

I sincerely doubt the veracity of what he is claiming.

The population of child molesters has a higher percentage of homosexuals than the population at large. If a person is a homosexual, they are statistically more likely to consider pedophilia or pederasty than a heterosexual.

No, homosexuals are not statistically more likely than heterosexuals to consider pedophilia. Homosexuals are homosexuals, not pedophiles. Heterosexuals are heterosexuals, not pedophiles. Pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction ("orientation") all by itself. As for the pederasty, I guess you've never heard of the numerous guys in their 20s (and some in their 30s) dating 15 and 16 year-old girls, eh?

I’ve been called a lot of things in my 35 years, but this is the first time I’ve been called evil. I would not have much use for a pastor or church that take no interest in the spiritual development of new converts.

I didn't call you evil! I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between saying that something you said was evil and saying you are evil. Read the statement again and notice the bolded parts: "No, just evil unsubstantiated statements (your statement "Watch them to see if they are truly allowing God to change them" was evil because it is saying that it doesn't matter what God does in their lives, we're never going to trust them)." Now, show me how any of that says YOU are evil!

How do the hollering of 'nonsense' and accusations of cluelessness help prove your point and disprove mine?

It isn't about proving a point. You clearly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to homosexuality.

I am attempting to address this, above, and will do so a little more later on.

This thread isn't about pedophiles, it's about homosexuals. If you want to talk about pedophiles, go start another thread!

Transsexuals. I used the wrong word. It’s a good thing you were ready to jump in here and point that out for me.

I would expect someone who seems to think he knows what he's talking about to get it right!

You are one fun dude! Let’s talk about children, harm to children, and negligence:

Start a separate thread.

Here is the trouble:

1) You are either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a good deal of overlap between the two categories of homosexuals and pedophiles.

There is no overlap. Homosexuality is not the same thing as pedophilia - neither is heterosexuality the same as pedophilia!

2) You don’t place sufficient priority on protecting children already in the congregation, and preserving their innocence.

There is NEVER any justification for treating someone whom GOD has forgiven as if he is not forgiven - which is exactly what you're demanding we do. It's not your place to deny someone whom God has forgiven the place in the body of Christ that God has assigned. If you want to talk about protecting children, go start another thread!

3) You don’t understand that your church can be litigated out of existence if a molestation takes place on the church property. You have not been exposed to the concepts of risk evaluation and management.

Not relevant! If you're so interested in protecting children (I don't believe that you are, I think you're just spewing forth hate for a certain group of people), then you really need to be looking at the group that does the most molestations - FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS OF THE FAMILY!!!!!!

4) You have responded as though this topic presses a hot button for you. I recommend you take a breather and take a second glance. You’ll be better served by calm and objectivity.

I'm just sick and tired of people like you who don't have a clue about homosexuality spewing forth this kind of garbage that ends up turning homosexuals away from Christ instead of to Christ.

5) I suspect that you have bought into the world’s view of alternative lifestyles, and possibly even have bought into some of the propaganda pushed by the homosexual activists themselves. They want our children. Be fervent for Jesus, not gay rights.

More evidence that you don't know what you're talking about! You need to just butt out of this topic entirely and leave it to those of us who actually know more than just a little something about it. No one here is supporting "gay rights." This thread is about homosexuals who come into the church. What do we do with them? How are they to be treated? Your approach is clearly the kind of vile approach the Pharisees would have taken "Oh, no, they're homosexuals, we don't want those kind of people in our church." It's people like you who drive homosexuals who would otherwise be seeking healing of their unnatural attraction and victory over their sin out of the Church and into the waiting and welcoming arms of the gay rights activists and the so-called "gay churches."

I hope you don't mind my making some assumptions about you in this list. You certainly have made some assumptions about me!

Yes, I do mind because you don't know what you're talking about!

If the building catches on fire, it’s over quickly, one way or another. But sexual abuse is passed from one generation to the next in endless cycles. Today’s child victims are tomorrow’s adult abusers. Preventing abuse prevents obstacles to salvation from forming in multiple generations. It is deeply disconcerting to find you think that protecting the children is garbage. Matthew 18:6

But if you were really interested in protecting children, you wouldn't be talking about homosexuals as if they were pedophiles (again, pedophilia is a sexual/romantic attraction all its own - pedophiles are pedophiles, not heterosexuals or homosexuals), you'd be talking about the family members and friends of families who do most of the molesting! You'd be trying to protect children from their families just as a precaution.

The courts will find the leadership of the church negligent and therefore liable for harm done to children in the church, when reasonable precautions aren’t taken. By extension, all the responsible adults are morally culpable when this happens. I believe God sees it this way. Even the courts do.

I don't give a rat's behind what the courts do! Again, most molestations are done by family members and friends of the family. The Church is in the business of bringing sinners to Christ - they won't come to Christ if you are pushing them away from Him!

I haven't said, nor will I, that I am in favor of ostracization of homosexuals.
My position isn't based on hatred for homosexuals. It is based on the unparalleled love a man has for his children. And it is based on empathy for my brothers and sisters, whom I presume also love their children.

Don't be a sheep. Be a sheepdog.

Yes, you are in favor of ostracizing homosexuals just because you want everyone to automatically assume that homosexuals are really pedophiles and that they're going to be looking to molest children! Again, most of the people who molest children are members of the child's family or are friends of the child's family. Yet, you don't seem to be too concerned about them.

Let's get back to the topic of this thread and stay there!

Originally Posted by Subdued

Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?

No.

[Subdued]

Originally Posted by Chan

No.

I disagree.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Subdued

I disagree.

I do too.

For instance, I love my son, but I don't trust him to be out at midnight on the streets.

I love my daughter, but I don't trust her with my money.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Subdued

Isn't it possible to love a person whom you don't trust?

Of course it is. I love my children dearly, but I don't always trust them to make good judgment calls or to do the right thing, because their maturity is lacking. So I supervise them and edit their decisions as necessary. My trust in them will grow over time, and if they violate they trust with bad decisions, or lying or whatever else, then they will have to work to regain it. In the meantime, I love them completely, in spite of their faults. But I would be stupid to trust them implicitly.

Likewise with other people...love them, but trust them? No way. Trust and love are not synonymous. There are folks who I might place trust in business-wise, because they are credible and have a good reputation, such as a bank or accountant, but I don't "love" them. I do place trust in them. If they were to lose my funds or squander my money, I would no longer trust them and would place my money elsewhere.

Simple enough concept, really.