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  #1  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:38 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheltiedad View Post
Yes I do... instructions in the Old Testament for raping female prisoners of war and taking them as slaves... that's nonsense to me.
The bible passage you refer to is this:

Quote:
Lev 19:20-22 KJV And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. (21) And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. (22) And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Brother, this is NOT CONDONING RAPE OF A SLAVE!!!! It is saying that if she is raped she is punished as is the rapist. But since she was not fully free, she is not put to death. She had no full choice in the matter. And this is called SIN by the perpetrator as well.

What is so nonsensical about that? The man is not excused from this sin.

Slavery is not promoted in the bible, folks. It mentions how to deal with situations involving slavery the right way, but it does not endrose slavery. The bible just deals with proper treatment of slaves.

The New Testament forbade slave traders calling them MENSTEALERS. 1 Tim 1:10.

Slavery was condemned here:

Exo 21:16 KJV And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Deu 24:7 KJV If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

We cannot simply look at the reference to slaves and say the bible is nonsensical about the issue since slavery is wrong. Study the bible and learn that there was also those who, more or less, opted for slavery. If their debts got out of hand they could go to a rich man who would pay off their debts and they would be "enslaved" for a period of 7 years at which time they were to be released. If they didn't want to be released they could opt for a continuation of that slavery.

There is also a passage about not being a cruel master.
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:41 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

Brother, this is NOT CONDONING RAPE OF A SLAVE!!!! It is saying that if she is raped she is punished as is the rapist.
So she gets it twice???? Raped then punished??
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  #3  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
So she gets it twice???? Raped then punished??
Brotehr! (I am somewhat amazed at some remarks here about the Bible. Wow).

You guys shock me, sometimes.

The issue regards whose word is correct. Who knows what actually happened in a case where one accuses this or the other? That is the state in which the laws regarding cities of refuge had to work. Men who knew only so much could noy deal so far with issues to ensure fairness. They could not read minds, you know. So laws of God deal with that in mind.
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Old 06-26-2007, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
So she gets it twice???? Raped then punished??
Sounds to me that neither gets punished

Lev 19:20 "If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


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  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Sounds to me that neither gets punished

Lev 19:20 "If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
Incorrect.

Lev 19:20 KJV And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

But this is not speaking of a rape, by the way. It simply speaks of fornication.

Who said this was a rape????
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Incorrect.

Lev 19:20 KJV And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

But this is not speaking of a rape, by the way. It simply speaks of fornication.

Who said this was a rape????
That is the KJV. Im quoting a different translation.

ESV Lev 19:20 "If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
Lev 19:21 but he shall bring his compensation to the LORD, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.

NET Lev 19:20 " 'When a man has sexual intercourse with a woman, although she is a slave woman designated for another man and she has not yet been ransomed, or freedom has not been granted to her, there will be an obligation to compensate. They must not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:21 He must bring his guilt offering to the Lord at the doorway of the Meeting Tent, a guilt offering ram,

Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave, betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
Lev 19:21 but he shall bring a guilt offering for himself to the LORD, to the door of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.

This word used for scourging in the KJV means bascially an animal offering or sacrifice

Hebrew Word: baqar
Strong's Cross Reference: 1239
Definition: Seek, inquire (only in the Piel stem). (ASV and RSV generally similar except Pro_20:25 where RSV renders reflect. )

Derivative TWOT Number: 274a
Derivative Transliteration: baqar
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 1241
Derivative Definition: cattle, herd, ox.

biqqoret. Compensation, scourging(?) (ASV "punishment"; RSV "inquiry.") If one may judge from an Akkadian root baqaru instead of baqar, compensation is to be paid in a case involving a man and a betrothed, though unmarried, slave girl (Lev_19:20; the only occurrence of the term-see M. Noth, Leviticus).

baqar is found seven times. Much more frequent are synonyms baqash "seek," "secure," and darash "seek," "study," "seek (i.e. pray to) a deity." .

baqar, it is suggested, from the Arabic cognate, originally meant "split," "divide" and hence "discern." Its biblical use is largely in worship contexts, e.g. "checking" for ritual purity (Lev_13:36; cl Lev_27:33) or "inquiry," in the sense of meditation, possibly self-searching (Psa_27:4; cf. 2Ki_16:15). Only in Ezek does baqar refer to search of animals (Eze_34:11-12).

In the Aramaic, beqar, found only in Ezr, refers to "investigation," chiefly of records.

baqar. Cattle, herd, ox. (ASV and RSV Similar.) baqar (180 times), often used collectively, is doubtfully to be linked with baqar (see above) "to split," more particularly "to plow." It is used in the Mari letters, in Phoenician, Aramaic, and Arabic. Though baqar refers to draught animals such as oxen, the term is used for domestic cattle, including bulls, cows, heifers, and calves. baqar is distinguished from "flock" (son) which denotes small cattle such as sheep and goats. son and baqar often denote all domesticated animals. behema also refers to livestock generally including sheep and goats.

For the peoples of the ancient near middle east, including the Hebrews, cattle were a form of wealth. Indeed for the semi-nomadic patriarchs, wealth was measured in cattle. Hamor an Shechem of the hill country had cattle (Gen_34:28) and so did the patriarchs such as Abraham who were rich in cattle (Gen_13:2-7). Isaac was envied by the Philistines for his cattle (Gen_26:12-14). Nathan's parable described the rich man as one who owned baqar (2Sa_12:2; cf. Ecc_2:7). Herds of cattle were a prize in war (Num_31:33; 1Sa_27:9). In patriarchal times at least, cattle were given at the time of covenant making (Gen_21:27-31). baqar are to be restored fivefold when stolen (Exo_22:1). Fertility among cattle was obviously important and the Canaanite gods, worshiped as fertility bringers, held an appeal to the Hebrews for that reason. But the Scriptures insist that increase of cattle is due to the Lord's blessing (Gen_24:35; Job_42:12).

As wealth, baqar could be given as gifts (Gen_21:27). As a gesture of generosity Abraham prepared a calf for the angelic messenger (Gen_18:7). Joseph exchanged bread for cattle (Gen_47:17). David had royal herds (1Ch_27:29). baqar were important in stewardship. A tithe of the herd (baqar) was holy to the Lord (Lev_27:32). Of interest are the tallies recorded in Num_7:12ff. For Israel the tithe could hardly be an exclusively private affair about which the community was uninformed. The revival in Hezekiah's time brought a sense of stewardship and the voluntary gifts of baqar (2Ch_31:6).


Then look at the context again

Lev 19:20 And whoever lies with a woman with semen, and she is a slave-girl, betrothed to a husband and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her, there shall be an inquest. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to Jehovah, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
Lev 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before Jehovah for his sin which he has done. And the sin which he has done shall be forgiven him.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
So she gets it twice???? Raped then punished??
Also this verse does not say she was raped
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:52 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Rape Laws

Deu 22:25 "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
Deu 22:26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor,
Deu 22:27 because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
Deu 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
Deu 22:30 "A man shall not take his father's wife, so that he does not uncover his father's nakedness.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Deu 22:25 "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
Deu 22:26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death.
For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor,
Deu 22:27 because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
Deu 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
Deu 22:30 "A man shall not take his father's wife, so that he does not uncover his father's nakedness.

Exactly.
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  #10  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:53 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Also this verse does not say she was raped
Just what I noticed!
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