There Has Been A Change

Originally Posted by crakjak

It all begins with a change of attitude. Your past does not define your future, all around you there are folks, not as smart as you that are making lots of money. If you don't have your finances in order already, get Dave Ramsey's book, "Total Money Makeover" and follow it without fail and you will get out of debt. Then follow his plan into wealth building, it is a simple plan, and it will show you where the problems are, with clear guidance forward.

The problem is too many will say, "That just won't work in my situation." That is a lie, it will work. Go for it, Bro.

You either have a spending problem, or an income problem, that's it! It is God's will that we "prosper and be in health" I don't care what the fearful and unbelieving have to say about it. No where in scripture is poverty glorified.

Are you sure about that? Here are some scriptures for you to consider before you answer.

II Corinthians 8:1-2,9
Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Psalm 37:16
A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

Proverbs 13:7
There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.

Proverbs 28:6
Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

James 2:5-6
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James 5:1-3
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Revelation 2:8-10
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Psalm 140:12
I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor.

Proverbs 14:31
He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Proverbs 17:5
Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

Proverbs 29:7
The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it.

Zephaniah 3:8-12
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 11:4-6
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


Matthew 26:10-11; Mark 14:7
When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Are you sure about that? Here are some scriptures for you to consider before you answer.

II Corinthians 8:1-2,9
Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Psalm 37:16
A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

Proverbs 13:7
There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.

Proverbs 28:6
Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

James 2:5-6
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James 5:1-3
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Revelation 2:8-10
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Psalm 140:12
I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor.

Proverbs 14:31
He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Proverbs 17:5
Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

Proverbs 29:7
The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it.

Zephaniah 3:8-12
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 11:4-6
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


Matthew 26:10-11; Mark 14:7
When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

If you will read these verses with understanding you will see that the poverty itself is not glorified. These verses speak to the fact that God cares for the poor and so should the righteous.

My post is not to be misunderstood as a license for greed or selfishness. Rather that with wealth we have many more options for giving and investing in to the kingdom.

You can not give what you do not possess, I said nothing of consuming one's wealth on excessiveness. To the contrary, I believe it is for great good works ministry, so when "they see our good works, they will glorify our Father that is in heaven."

Our investment, along with many others can be seen at: www.coventryreserve.org


Jesus himself allowed the woman to expend her savings on Himself, saying "For you have the poor with you always....." Helping the poor the most significantly is to provide education, instruction and direction into self reliance and abundance.

The national welfare system has established a whole class of victims and dependents that hardly know how to get themselves out of bed. So only throwing money at these problems is clearly not the answer.

Thanks for you response, very good thought for further discussion.

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you will read these verses with understanding you will see that the poverty itself is not glorified. These verses speak to the fact that God cares for the poor and so should the righteous.

My post is not to be misunderstood as a license for greed or selfishness. Rather that with wealth we have many more options for giving and investing in to the kingdom.

You can not give what you do not possess, I said nothing of consuming one's wealth on excessiveness. To the contrary, I believe it is for great good works ministry, so when "they see our good works, they will glorify our Father that is in heaven."

Our investment, along with many others can be seen at: www.coventryreserve.org


Jesus himself allowed the woman to expend her savings on Himself, saying "For you have the poor with you always....." Helping the poor the most significantly is to provide education, instruction and direction into self reliance and abundance.

The national welfare system has established a whole class of victims and dependents that hardly know how to get themselves out of bed. So only throwing money at these problems is clearly not the answer.

Thanks for you response, very good thought for further discussion.

Though He was rich, for our sakes He became poor. That completely, utterly flies in the face of the basic tenets of the 'prosperity gospel' most commonly found in the ranks of the charismatics.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Though He was rich, for our sakes He became poor. That completely, utterly flies in the face of the basic tenets of the 'prosperity gospel' most commonly found in the ranks of the charismatics.

I said nothing of the 'prosperity gospel' nor did I mention charismatics, nor am I one.

Yes, He became poor that we could become rich! Rich is more than wealth, yet it includes wealth. Abraham was very rich, Moses and the Israeli carried the wealth of Egypt out with them. Believe me being poor is a condition that should be healed by the gospel.

"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Dr. Luke believed in being rich, and I agree with him. Read that last part carefully, the secret of wealth is contained in it. "...with the measure you use...."

Originally Posted by crakjak

I said nothing of the 'prosperity gospel' nor did I mention charismatics, nor am I one.

Yes, He became poor that we could become rich! Rich is more than wealth, yet it includes wealth. Abraham was very rich, Moses and the Israeli carried the wealth of Egypt out with them. Believe me being poor is a condition that should be healed by the gospel.
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Dr. Luke believed in being rich, and I agree with him. Read that last part carefully, the secret of wealth is contained in it. "...with the measure you use...."

Too bad for the apostle Paul, he never did have his status 'healed' by the gospel; indeed, his circumstances were a result of believing and preaching the gospel.

I Corinthians 4:8-14
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

II Corinthians 11:27
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

And, Jesus Himself said He didn't even have a place to lay his head (see Matthew 8:20, Luke 9:58)

And the writer of Hebrews, in listing those unnamed heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, described them this way:

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Too bad for the apostle Paul, he never did have his status 'healed' by the gospel; indeed, his circumstances were a result of believing and preaching the gospel.

I Corinthians 4:8-14
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

II Corinthians 11:27
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

And, Jesus Himself said He didn't even have a place to lay his head (see Matthew 8:20, Luke 9:58)

And the writer of Hebrews, in listing those unnamed heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, described them this way:

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Paul was not poor. He submitted all he had to fulfill his purpose, which meant he learned, "how to abound and how to be abased". Further it is a mistake to superimpose the culture and times of the NT on our context. These wanderers were being pursued by the Jewish and Roman authorities, we are not in the same context. We are in a context in which we should be more in the "abound" that Paul presented. There is a challenge and discipline required in abundance as much as in the "abased" context. A common misunderstanding of Christians is to look at everything thru a biblical cultural context and miss what God is doing in our current context.

We are called to work out our Christian lives in the context in which we live, not tailoring our lives by the cultural and historical context of the Apostles.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Paul was not poor. He submitted all he had to fulfill his purpose, which meant he learned, "how to abound and how to be abased". Further it is a mistake to superimpose the culture and times of the NT on our context. These wanderers were being pursued by the Jewish and Roman authorities, we are not in the same context. We are in a context in which we should be more in the "abound" that Paul presented. There is a challenge and discipline required in abundance as much as in the "abased" context. A common misunderstanding of Christians is to look at everything thru a biblical cultural context and miss what God is doing in our current context.

We are called to work out our Christian lives in the context in which we live, not tailoring our lives by the cultural and historical context of the Apostles.

We ARE called to tailor our lives after the historical context of the scriptures, for the words therein are not limited to the times in which they were written. We ARE called to follow those precepts of scripture, regardless if it is AD100 or AD 2028. Truth is not relative to culture.

The Bible culture has not changed in 2000 years. It is still the same culture as it always has been. The world's culture has changed, but not truth.

Originally Posted by crakjak

Paul was not poor. He submitted all he had to fulfill his purpose, which meant he learned, "how to abound and how to be abased". Further it is a mistake to superimpose the culture and times of the NT on our context. These wanderers were being pursued by the Jewish and Roman authorities, we are not in the same context. We are in a context in which we should be more in the "abound" that Paul presented. There is a challenge and discipline required in abundance as much as in the "abased" context. A common misunderstanding of Christians is to look at everything thru a biblical cultural context and miss what God is doing in our current context.

We are called to work out our Christian lives in the context in which we live, not tailoring our lives by the cultural and historical context of the Apostles.

Boy, how simple it can be to 'make up' a doctrine out of whole cloth. And, such a task is very easy when we set the scripture aside when it 'doesn't fit our culture'. Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.