The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

Sin are not forgiven until on is baptized in Jesus name. We are baptized for the remission of sin , that is when the blood is applied.

Also the Word says that without the Spirit, the Holy Ghost we are none of His.

I am Apostolic to the very core and have heard the portion bolded above all of my life, however, I am respectfully asking, where is the scriptural proof that the blood is applied at all and not appropriated, and that this happens ONLY at baptism?!

And if sin is not forgiven until baptism, what is repentance for?!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Barb

I am Apostolic to the very core and have heard the portion bolded above all of my life, however, I am respectfully asking, where is the scriptural proof that the blood is applied at all and not appropriated, and that this happens ONLY at baptism?!

And if sin is not forgiven until baptism, what is repentance for?!

The Blood in the tabernacle began a journey at the brazen altar that was not culminated until it reached the mercy seat at the Holy of Holies.

If it had stopped at any place short of completion, there would have been no atonement.

Even so, we appropriate the benefits of the Blood when we complete our obedience to God's only plan of salvation--Acts 2:38.

If we stop short, no soap.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The Blood in the tabernacle began a journey at the brazen altar that was not culminated until it reached the mercy seat at the Holy of Holies.

If it had stopped at any place short of completion, there would have been no atonement.

Even so, we appropriate the benefits of the Blood when we complete our obedience to God's only plan of salvation--Acts 2:38.

If we stop short, no soap.

True.

However in the old Testament sins were forgiven but not TAKEN AWAY in the NT sins are not only forgiven but taken away or remitted.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

True.

However in the old Testament sins were forgiven but not TAKEN AWAY in the NT sins are not only forgiven but taken away or remitted.

Love this one ... EP ... please elaborate on the difference between remission and forgiveness ... please use scriputural support ... and you get to use one analogy.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Love this one ... EP ... please elaborate on the difference between remission and forgiveness ... please use scriputural support ... and you get to use one analogy.

In the OT sins were forgiven yes or no??????????????????

Were they taken away???????????? Paul says no in Heb. 10.

The was NOT remission of sins available in the OT!!!!!!!!!

Only Calvary made remission of sins available. Heb. 9:22, Rom 3:24-25

The Incarnation and Death-Burial-Resurrection made remission of sins available. Jn. 1:29, Rom. 4:25

Remission of sins in the NT was preached in Jesus Name beginning at Jerusalem the command Luke 24:47 the fulfillment Acts 2:38!

Remission clears the record of the sins forgiven.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In the OT sins were forgiven yes or no??????????????????

Were they taken away???????????? Paul says no in Heb. 10.

The was NOT remission of sins available in the OT!!!!!!!!!

Only Calvary made remission of sins available. Heb. 9:22, Rom 3:24-25

The Incarnation and Death-Burial-Resurrection made remission of sins available. Jn. 1:29, Rom. 4:25

Remission of sins in the NT was preached in Jesus Name beginning at Jerusalem the command Luke 24:47 the fulfillment Acts 2:38!

Remission clears the record of the sins forgiven.

Not sound theology Elder ... sorry. It's a leap in verbal gymnastics to try to make these two synonyms, forgiveness and remission, to be distinct.

Most Oneness scholars are not in agreement with on you on this issue, including Daniel Seagraves, CLC President who wrote in a 1988 symposium:

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

He also said "Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?"

If I were debating on your side ... I would get off this strand of logic ... it's faulty ... and unscriptural ... to the other side it seems like string theology used to defend your view .... you're better off beating the OBEDIENCE drum than to not rightly dividing the Word.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Not sound theology Elder ... sorry. It's a leap in verbal gymnastics to try to make these two synonyms, forgiveness and remission, to be distinct.

Most Oneness scholars are not in agreement with on you on this issue, including Daniel Seagraves, CLC President who wrote in a 1988 symposium:

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

He also said "Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?"

If I were debating on your side ... I would get off this strand of logic ... it's faulty ... and unscriptural ... to the other side it seems like string theology used to defend your view .... you're better off beating the OBEDIENCE drum than to not rightly dividing the Word.

Again I disagree with Elder Seagraves but YOU nor has anyone answered the simple question if forgiveness and remission are the same then why
were sins forgiven but NOT taken away or remitted in the OT????????
So they are NOT the same though they come from the same word because the same act shedding of blood procurs BOTH and make BOTH available by faith and obedience.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In the OT sins were forgiven yes or no??????????????????

Were they taken away???????????? Paul says no in Heb. 10.

The was NOT remission of sins available in the OT!!!!!!!!!

Only Calvary made remission of sins available. Heb. 9:22, Rom 3:24-25

The Incarnation and Death-Burial-Resurrection made remission of sins available. Jn. 1:29, Rom. 4:25

Remission of sins in the NT was preached in Jesus Name beginning at Jerusalem the command Luke 24:47 the fulfillment Acts 2:38!

Remission clears the record of the sins forgiven.

You place such emphasis upon the difference between "forgiveness" and "remisssion" and how there was no remission in the OT. Mark 1:4 says, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Was John not ministering under the OT Covenant? How could their sins be remitted since the blood of Jesus had not yet been shed?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

You place such emphasis upon the difference between "forgiveness" and "remisssion" and how there was no remission in the OT. Mark 1:4 says, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Was John not ministering under the OT Covenant? How could their sins be remitted since the blood of Jesus had not yet been shed?

I am Truly Blessed by your sound doctrine.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

You place such emphasis upon the difference between "forgiveness" and "remisssion" and how there was no remission in the OT. Mark 1:4 says, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Was John not ministering under the OT Covenant? How could their sins be remitted since the blood of Jesus had not yet been shed?

Elder Epley your "remission and forgiveness are different" theory .... looks likes this ....

Is the WORD ENOUGH???