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08-21-2007, 10:30 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Sorry this line is very unclear to me. I think most would kill before, during or after the rape... I know this would be my inclination without the help of God...
BTW no one is saying you should not stop him from raping.
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That is beside the point. The question is not "what would you do". The question was what does it mean to render evil for evil or retribution or vengeance.
What if violence is your only way to stop someone from entering your house, your wife and kids are home (hypothetical)...and two guys are kicking the door in? Or you come home and a man has ripped the clothes off of you wife and is attempting to assault her....do you ask him to stop? Or do you resort to violence? What if he has a knife or a gun and you own a gun?
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:38 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
That is beside the point. The question is not "what would you do". The question was what does it mean to render evil for evil or retribution or vengeance.
What if violence is your only way to stop someone from entering your house, your wife and kids are home (hypothetical)...and two guys are kicking the door in? Or you come home and a man has ripped the clothes off of you wife and is attempting to assault her....do you ask him to stop? Or do you resort to violence? What if he has a knife or a gun and you own a gun?
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Again... I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
Should I kill him in such a struggle - I would repent and live with this knowledge.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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08-21-2007, 10:43 PM
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Smiles everyone...Smiles!!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sparta, TN
Posts: 2,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Again... I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
Should I kill him in such a struggle - I would repent and live with this knowledge.
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Stephen,
This is the biblical and balanced approach.
No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.
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08-21-2007, 10:52 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stmatthew
Stephen,
This is the biblical and balanced approach.
No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.
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I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.
BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:57 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.
BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.
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Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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08-21-2007, 11:02 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
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Wow, I love you. 
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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08-21-2007, 11:03 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
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Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.
BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.
You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 11:09 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.
BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.
You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.
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I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.
If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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08-22-2007, 09:26 AM
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Lamb Saved & Shepherd Led
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
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A post worth repeating! 
John 15:12-13
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
-DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
www.tkburk.com
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08-22-2007, 06:19 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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One last point here. That the word Vengeance means to repay a deed and not defend someone from harm, let's look at the context
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
AMP Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is honest and proper and noble [aiming to be above reproach] in the sight of everyone.(2)
Note verse 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
IF possible. This is not an absolute command, but leaves room for situations where it is not possible.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God's] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay (requite), says the Lord.(3)
Notice avenge and vengeance here is defined as repayment for deeds done. Not defend against a deed, or prevent a deed or stop someone from doing a deed to someone else. It's about repayment
Lastly, did anyone notice this is actually an Old Testament verse?
Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'
Deu 32:36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.
Yet within the context of the law NOT all killings were murder or wrong.
BTW know something funny? The greek word for coals in verse 20 is anthrax lol
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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