I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.
BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
Wow, I love you.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.
BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.
You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.
BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.
You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.
I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.
If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.
If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.
WOULD you use violence to stop an assualt in progress if violence is your only recourse? If you had a weapon, and it was the only means to stop an attack, would you use it?
Imagine if someone with a gun was at Virginia Tech...they could have stopped that guy from possibly sending others to hell too.
And my point is, in the course of resorting to violence death MIGHT occur.
If someone must die, would you rather it be a son or daughter or wife than that lost soul? Yes what a difficult question, but that's really NOT the issue. Because you never know what you might do in that situation. The question is does the bible forbid using violence, even violence that could result in death, to save family members from harm?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
WOULD you use violence to stop an assualt in progress if violence is your only recourse? If you had a weapon, and it was the only means to stop an attack, would you use it?
Imagine if someone with a gun was at Virginia Tech...they could have stopped that guy from possibly sending others to hell too.
And my point is, in the course of resorting to violence death MIGHT occur.
If someone must die, would you rather it be a son or daughter or wife than that lost soul? Yes what a difficult question, but that's really NOT the issue. Because you never know what you might do in that situation. The question is does the bible forbid using violence, even violence that could result in death, to save family members from harm?
Sorry too hypothetical... I do not carry such a weapon... If I did my intent would not be to kill.
I would die trying to prevent death to occur in a family crisis.
I wholeheartedly agree we cannot predict exactly what we would do in any given situation... hence we have an advocate with the Father.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.
If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.
No offense intended, just being real here, but would you replace 'me' in the above statement with 'one of my children'?
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.
A post worth repeating!
John 15:12-13
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere. -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03
One last point here. That the word Vengeance means to repay a deed and not defend someone from harm, let's look at the context
Rom 12:17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
AMP Rom 12:17Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is honest and proper and noble [aiming to be above reproach] in the sight of everyone.(2)
Note verse 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
IF possible. This is not an absolute command, but leaves room for situations where it is not possible.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God's] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay (requite), says the Lord.(3)
Notice avenge and vengeance here is defined as repayment for deeds done. Not defend against a deed, or prevent a deed or stop someone from doing a deed to someone else. It's about repayment
Lastly, did anyone notice this is actually an Old Testament verse? Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.' Deu 32:36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.
Yet within the context of the law NOT all killings were murder or wrong.
BTW know something funny? The greek word for coals in verse 20 is anthrax lol
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
One last point here. That the word Vengeance means to repay a deed and not defend someone from harm, let's look at the context
Rom 12:17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
AMP Rom 12:17Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is honest and proper and noble [aiming to be above reproach] in the sight of everyone.(2)
Note verse 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
IF possible. This is not an absolute command, but leaves room for situations where it is not possible.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God's] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay (requite), says the Lord.(3)
Notice avenge and vengeance here is defined as repayment for deeds done. Not defend against a deed, or prevent a deed or stop someone from doing a deed to someone else. It's about repayment
Lastly, did anyone notice this is actually an Old Testament verse? Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.' Deu 32:36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.
Yet within the context of the law NOT all killings were murder or wrong.
BTW know something funny? The greek word for coals in verse 20 is anthrax lol
Great post, Prax.
Funny also that God mentions that he will vindicate His people, but those same people were sent by God to kill those (and their families, including women and children) to keep them from harming the children of God. This included commanding them to go when the enemy was sleeping, unarmed, and I think once the enemy was drunk!
God didn't even wait for the enemy to come to His people most of the time, but instead sent His people to take care of the enemy first.
Yes, God said He would have vengeance against those who harm His people, but in order to have vengeance, He sent those same people to do it for it many times.
Reminds me of the guy who believed that God only worked miraculously, so during a flood, he perched on his roof and prayed for God to save him.
A boat came by. No, he was waiting on God, but thanks anyway.
Another boat came by. He'd love to take the ride but he had faith in God that God Himself would save him.
A helicopter came by. He gave the same statements.
He died.
He got to heaven and God let him in according to his deeds. He turned and asked a simple question..."God, why didn't you save me?"
"I tried! I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?"
See, God uses man most of the time to do His works. How can God do works if we refuse to do them?
You think the enemy would have perished had Gideon told everyone to stay put, that it was God's fight, not theirs? Think the walls of Jericho would have fallen if God's people had just stayed at their camp and waited for God to announce that He'd done the deed Himself?
Faith without works is dead. You can have faith that God will protect your family, but you have to work to make sure that happens. This goes for any situation, be it on the street (you don't let your children play on the interstate while believing God will keep them safe, right?), in the park (you don't let your children ride their skateboards down a flight of steps while praying God keeps them safe, right?), while driving (you don't go to sleep at the wheel after praying that God keep your car on the road, right?) or while someone is harming or threatening your family (you don't stand there and call 911 and let them do God's work, right?).
Yet this is what I'm hearing from some of you.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
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