Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So you can lose your soul through works? Is that correct?

The Bible clearly teaches that there are "works of darkness", "works of the flesh", "wicked works", etc. that have their roots in the devil himself. 1John 3:8 says, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

My observation of Scripture is that "works" as mentioned above will result in the person doing them being lost. It is for this reason that we are told to "...cast off the works of darkness..." (Rom.13:12)

However, it seems that while works of darkness will condemn a person to a lost eternity, good works in themselves will not result in eternal life. Our good works identify who we are and constitute the justification of our faith.

Jesus said in John 5:36, "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

Again in John 10:25, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."

No where in Scripture do I remember it said that works would save us. Contrariwise Paul said to Timothy, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"(2Tim.1:9)

In Titus 3:5 we read, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

So, even when the works that one does are righteous works they cannot save him. We have to distinguish in Scripture the difference between "acts of obedience" done in response to the Spirit's promptings and "works", which do earn us rewards, but not salvation.

While works cannot save us, we are called unto good works because these good works prove the genuineness of our faith. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:8-10)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

The Bible clearly teaches that there are "works of darkness", "works of the flesh", "wicked works", etc. that have their roots in the devil himself. 1John 3:8 says, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

To destroy the works of the devil that we were involed in during our lives priorly. Now here's the rub. While you will do the Calvanist two step, and claim some loyalty to man having free will, you spin around on your heels and say that of your own power you can be lost. The Calvanist would throw a choke hold on you and say how can you lose the free unmerited gift when you never earned it in the first place, and if you never earned it how can you forfiet it.

You see Brother Curtis, what I have found that is strangly apparent is that their is a group of Baptecostals who are all over the world, in the great endevour to be a nicer and friendly and more mainstream they have adopted Calvanistic soteriology, while it may not be pure Calvanism it still has the same confess and be saved.

Now while they still stand staunch on the platform of water baptism, in filling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, being moral, and beoming a good nighbor, they don't believe if someone doesn't complete the "steps" of baptism in Jesus name, repentence, Holy Ghost in filling, and speaking in tongues, that the person will be lost eternally.

While they say they don't believe repentence, water baptism, infilling of the Holy Ghost with tongues are works they really betray their own teachings by saying that if someone misses the baptisms, and repentence, they can still be saved?

Works of the flesh you had mentioned in your quote above, let's examine that.

Eph 2:8-10

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD WALK IN THEM."

Everything is based on our freewill, and we are persuaded through the move of the Holy Ghost to be lead to repentance. Now we can reject that moving of God as He is trying to persuade us even before we ever came to repentance. You said that you see wicked works in scripture, so if wicked works are still able to be done by a Holy Ghost filled saint, to earn them a seat in hell, then the sinner can refuse the move of the Holy Ghost on their heart. Now, the Holy Ghost moves on a soul and they accept to follow Jesus, and I use the word ACCEPT, acceptance is an action through choice, and repentance is not just a change of mind, but a change of behavior.

You don't receive the Holy Ghost and become instantly mature. It takes a "walk" and "growing" through Apostolic ministers "teaching" coupled with the move of the Holy Ghost to bring you UNTO GOOD WORKS, these works were pre ordained by God's goodness and holiness that a saint may walk (action word) in them.

By you agreeing that wicked works can earn you a spot in eternal judgement the opposite must be true.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

My observation of Scripture is that "works" as mentioned above will result in the person doing them being lost. It is for this reason that we are told to "...cast off the works of darkness..." (Rom.13:12)

However, it seems that while works of darkness will condemn a person to a lost eternity, good works in themselves will not result in eternal life. Our good works identify who we are and constitute the justification of our faith.

Good works is just a by-product of you having eternal life, and you have made that statement yourself. You said that if some one had truly repented that they would WANT to be baptized. Here we have people getting the opportunity and that opportunity is a must, but they will WANT to do it through the LOVE and persuasion of the Holy Ghost. Now if you refuse you're doing WICKED WORKS, and therefore will be lost. So by doing wicked works you are NOT DOING GOOD WORKS. The Calvanist avoids all that be placing the doctrine of eternal security in the slot that the Bapticostal has left open.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Jesus said in John 5:36, "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

Again in John 10:25, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."

Works of Jesus was to go and die on the cross; we are not called to that particular GOOD WORK. The works that Jesus did wrought and you and I are to do are lead by His example and we are to BECOME just like HIM.

It's a shame that due to the great swing of the pendulum that those who were raised in holiness churches make the great leap towards Calvinism to make an adjustment from where they use to be.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

No where in Scripture do I remember it said that works would save us. Contrariwise Paul said to Timothy, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"(2Tim.1:9)

In Titus 3:5 we read, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

So, even when the works that one does are righteous works they cannot save him. We have to distinguish in Scripture the difference between "acts of obedience" done in response to the Spirit's promptings and "works", which do earn us rewards, but not salvation.

While works cannot save us, we are called unto good works because these good works prove the genuineness of our faith. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:8-10)

To say that wicked works can put you in hell the opposite must be true.

Ponder that TB.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

To destroy the works of the devil that we were involed in during our lives priorly. Now here's the rub. While you will do the Calvanist two step, and claim some loyalty to man having free will, you spin around on your heels and say that of your own power you can be lost. The Calvanist would throw a choke hold on you and say how can you lose the free unmerited gift when you never earned it in the first place, and if you never earned it how can you forfiet it.

You see Brother Curtis, what I have found that is strangly apparent is that their is a group of Baptecostals who are all over the world, in the great endevour to be a nicer and friendly and more mainstream they have adopted Calvanistic soteriology, while it may not be pure Calvanism it still has the same confess and be saved.

Now while they still stand staunch on the platform of water baptism, in filling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, being moral, and beoming a good nighbor, they don't believe if someone doesn't complete the "steps" of baptism in Jesus name, repentence, Holy Ghost in filling, and speaking in tongues, that the person will be lost eternally.

While they say they don't believe repentence, water baptism, infilling of the Holy Ghost with tongues are works they really betray their own teachings by saying that if someone misses the baptisms, and repentence, they can still be saved?

Works of the flesh you had mentioned in your quote above, let's examine that.

Eph 2:8-10

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD WALK IN THEM."

Everything is based on our freewill, and we are persuaded through the move of the Holy Ghost to be lead to repentance. Now we can reject that moving of God as He is trying to persuade us even before we ever came to repentance. You said that you see wicked works in scripture, so if wicked works are still able to be done by a Holy Ghost filled saint, to earn them a seat in hell, then the sinner can refuse the move of the Holy Ghost on their heart. Now, the Holy Ghost moves on a soul and they accept to follow Jesus, and I use the word ACCEPT, acceptance is an action through choice, and repentance is not just a change of mind, but a change of behavior.

You don't receive the Holy Ghost and become instantly mature. It takes a "walk" and "growing" through Apostolic ministers "teaching" coupled with the move of the Holy Ghost to bring you UNTO GOOD WORKS, these works were pre ordained by God's goodness and holiness that a saint may walk (action word) in them.

By you agreeing that wicked works can earn you a spot in eternal judgement the opposite must be true.



Good works is just a by-product of you having eternal life, and you have made that statement yourself. You said that if some one had truly repented that they would WANT to be baptized. Here we have people getting the opportunity and that opportunity is a must, but they will WANT to do it through the LOVE and persuasion of the Holy Ghost. Now if you refuse you're doing WICKED WORKS, and therefore will be lost. So by doing wicked works you are NOT DOING GOOD WORKS. The Calvanist avoids all that be placing the doctrine of eternal security in the slot that the Bapticostal has left open.




Works of Jesus was to go and die on the cross; we are not called to that particular GOOD WORK. The works that Jesus did wrought and you and I are to do are lead by His example and we are to BECOME just like HIM.

It's a shame that due to the great swing of the pendulum that those who were raised in holiness churches make the great leap towards Calvinism to make an adjustment from where they use to be.



To say that wicked works can put you in hell the opposite must be true.

Ponder that TB.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

First of all, I'm not a Calvinist, so what a Calvinist would think of my view of salvation is of no concern to me at all.

Secondly, it's interesting to me that you totally ignore the weight of Scripture that clearly states no one is saved by works, not even righteous works. Apparently you don't believe the Word of God on this point.

Thirdly, I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on your deduction that if wicked works will result in someone being lost, then the opposite is true. As I have pointed out, Scripture doesn't support this conclusion. Wouldn't that be like saying the opposite of Jesus Christ is Satan?

I will simply restate what Titus 3:5 teaches us, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

So, are you saying that you believe we ARE saved by our works, even though the Bible refutes this? It seems to me at times that you are agreeing with me that works are the response of the believer to the work of the Spirit in our lives, yet in the next breath you are saying that it's works that save us. Do you disagree with me when I say there is a distinction between "acts of obedience" and "works"?

I find it amazing that while PAJCers place so much emphasis on the need for someone to speak with other tongues, they minimize the role of the Spirit in favor of man's role in the salvation process. It's true that we have a free will, but once we have been born again by the Spirit, the Spirit is to be in control of our lives, not our will.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

First of all, I'm not a Calvinist, so what a Calvinist would think of my view of salvation is of no concern to me at all.

Wait a moment Brother Curtis; please try to understand what I am trying to gather from you. If you believe that their is zero participation on the part of a soul to receive salvation and they have not part in their own salvation then I would say you have some John Calvin leanings. Let me put it this way, if you were talking with a Calvinist and told him your views of God and Grace and the sinner coming to God, I do believe the Calvinist would agree with you. When you then tell the Calvinist that you believed that a soul has the power to lose the free gift of salvation (something you believe he never earned in the first place). The Calvinist would scratch his head and ask you how can you lose what you cannot ever obtain through works in the first place?

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Secondly, it's interesting to me that you totally ignore the weight of Scripture that clearly states no one is saved by works, not even righteous works. Apparently you don't believe the Word of God on this point.

No, I believe the whole book, but you're taking the scripture out of context.
You quote Eph 2:8 like a Baptist or Trinitarian quotes Matt 28:19, and fail to present the whole thought of the chapter. Paul explains what he is talking about in Eph 2:10. We are created or made mature unto good works. One could also bring the same accusation against you on why do you deny the Word of God and the many scriptures explaining good works.

What you are not seeing as you look through Denominational filters is that the works that will not get you saved are the works that are not Holy Ghost lead. Remember Paul is defending his churches against Judaizers who are trying to bring unknowing Gentiles into the Jewish Law system and trying to have the newly converted Gentiles circumcised and therefore making the Gentiles physical Jews to complete salvation. Paul comes against this strongly because these Laws were never meant to be applied to Gentiles.

We are to be lead by the Holy Ghost and good works are the product of a life in Christ.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Thirdly, I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on your deduction that if wicked works will result in someone being lost, then the opposite is true. As I have pointed out, Scripture doesn't support this conclusion. Wouldn't that be like saying the opposite of Jesus Christ is Satan?

Jesus the opposite of Satan? Maybe that's what the Mormon's believe, but that is not at all what I'm presenting here. Let me explain, if you have agreed that a person can lose his salvation by his own actions then by agreeing to that you are agreeing that he can by NOT doing those things preserve his salvation. Remember your argument is that you can not do anything to earn salvation and then when asked if you can lose that which was given you for free you then replied that you could through wicked works.

Therefore if you can lose the Holy Ghost through wicked works, then by doing certain things you can then prevent losing what you were given.

TB, I have Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church and Bible College right up the road from where we hold our Bible study classes. I must tell you this the students of Dr. D. James Kennedy would be on you like white on rice if they heard your teaching on Grace and the Loss of the Soul.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I will simply restate what Titus 3:5 teaches us, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

You are quoting that scripture out from beyond the context of its chapter and what is going on at the time it was written. The works of righteousness are those of the Judaic Law System, keeping all Jewish Festivals, animal sacrifice, visiting the temple in Jerusalem and keeping the traditions of the elders. For Gentiles to have any part of these laws would have been wrong.

In Acts chapter 15 it was made clear to the Jerusalem council that the Gentiles were to abstain from paganism (incidentally abstaining from something wrong would be a work) and not to keep the Law of Moses or have their children or themselves circumcised.

Again you quote the verse Titus 3:5 and by only quoting that one verse it would seem that your doctrine is valid, but if you would quote Titus 3:8 you would have the rest of the picture. Paul is telling Titus to put the people in mind that they do good works (Titus 3:1) and then Paul reminds Titus that they didn't deserve the gift of God and that Christ didn't come because of their good works (prior to their conversion) Titus 3:3-7. Paul then tells Titus that Titus 3:3-7 was the faithful saying or good news and that Titus was to keep affirming those things and that those who were now converted were to maintain GOOD WORKS.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

So, are you saying that you believe we ARE saved by our works, even though the Bible refutes this? It seems to me at times that you are agreeing with me that works are the response of the believer to the work of the Spirit in our lives, yet in the next breath you are saying that it's works that save us. Do you disagree with me when I say there is a distinction between "acts of obedience" and "works"?

Here we are again, and now we must look at what has been said. You say that you can not earn salvation correct? You then said but you can earn your damnation? I said that if you believe the one the other must also be true. Now, I say that the Holy Ghost calls ALL men to repentance and the Holy Ghost is pricking the hearts of men when they hear the Gospel, and are reminded of Christ's love. Those individuals (who make a decision to yield) who answer the call come to repentance (as John the Baptist commented, Mat 3:8) those who repent must bring forth the fruit of that repentance, which is obedience to the Gospel. The scripture then says God gives the Holy Ghost to they who OBEY, (Act 5:32). Those who were pricked in their hearts gladly were baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins. They also continued in the apostle's doctrine.

While the Calvinists claim that we have no intervention in the salvation process and also cannot lose salvation. I see the Bible telling us about a process that brings us from birth to maturity and the Holy Ghost is well able to keep us as any good parent can keep their child, but a child has their own free will and can make their own decision to kick against the pricks.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I find it amazing that while PAJCers place so much emphasis on the need for someone to speak with other tongues, they minimize the role of the Spirit in favor of man's role in the salvation process.

That's not true, I have never heard any preacher say that you can MAKE someone get the Holy Ghost. Brother Curtis there is no way any preacher can make someone get the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. I think it's the Charismatics who corner that market. I know that when I received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues that my life changed.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

It's true that we have a free will, but once we have been born again by the Spirit, the Spirit is to be in control of our lives, not our will.

That's wonderful, but we have to decrease and that takes WORK.

In JESUS Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com