Baptism for salvation questions

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Prax, I do make a distinction between the Gospel and baptism while I also understand that baptism presents a beautiful picture of that Gospel. It is the Gospel dramatized, but it is not the Gospel itself.

I do understand baptism is very close to the Gospel in that it declares, like I said, the believer's repentance and faith "in the Gospel." Remember Christ said he that believeth (the Gospel) and is baptized shall be saved. Christ makes a very clear distinction between the Gospel and baptism. Paul does the same when he said that he was not sent to baptize but to preach the Gospel.

I agree that ALL who believe/are saved should be baptized. The purpose though is not to be saved in the eyes of God. He knows the heart and recognizes the regenerative work He's performed in the confines of the soul. We, on the other hand, as mere men, do not know the innermost hearts of men so we must have a criteria by which we accept someone into the church at large "as being saved." Christ said that his Church was to be built upon the rock of an open confession in Him. Baptism was the time at which a believer openly declared his repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.

Confession "unto salvation" was made before the community at large. Salvation in the eyes of God? No. Salvation in the eyes of our peers. With the heart man believeth unto righteousness (i.e., unto salvation before God) but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (before our peers) [Romans 10:10]. Baptism was the time at which an open confession in Christ was declared. Only those who made such a confession were to be given the right hand of fellowship and welcomed in the Christian community at large.

Baptism was "the answer of a good conscience toward God" (1Peter 3:21). A good conscience of one's right standing before God was required prior to getting dunked. Water baptism is not supposed to be administered to anyone who does not have the full assurance of faith that he has been freed from sin by the work of Christ (Hebrews 10:22). Baptism was the time at which an inquiry was made concerning the conscience toward God.

Baptism was the "answer (eperotema) of a good conscience toward God" (1Peter 3:21). The word "eperotema" was a word used in court settings when a witness was inquired of his pledge to tell the truth. If I remember correctly, it was Tertullian who pointed out that water baptism was the time at which a new believer was asked concerning his "good conscience toward God" concerning sin. This "inquiry" (eperotema) of faith was directed toward every baptismal candidate. The candidate who did not feel free from the guilt of sin did not have true faith in the sin remitting work of Christ. Only those who have "full assurance of faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a good conscience toward God are to be baptized. In other words, only those who truly believe the Gospel are to be baptized and considered saved by the Church.

I have to leave for a while, but can you define what "the gospel" means? In the strictest most literal sense I would define that to mean simply What Jesus did for us etc etc...however even when that was done in Acts the question was asked "what must I do to be saved"...the answer was believe on Jesus...looking at all the accounts we know that includes repentance too. So in a looser sense I would say the gospel includes not only preaching Jesus but telling them what they need to do as a result of the conviction of their sins and hearing about what Jesus did for us so that we could be forgiven and born again. Where you go from there though is where we get the differences

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I have to leave for a while, but can you define what "the gospel" means? In the strictest most literal sense I would define that to mean simply What Jesus did for us etc etc...however even when that was done in Acts the question was asked "what must I do to be saved"...the answer was believe on Jesus...looking at all the accounts we know that includes repentance too. So in a looser sense I would say the gospel includes not only preaching Jesus but telling them what they need to do as a result of the conviction of their sins and hearing about what Jesus did for us so that we could be forgiven and born again. Where you go from there though is where we get the differences

Without trying to promote any doctine, I am left with only posting scriptures without being able to make my point. So, I'll allow the Apostle Paul to take my place.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

According to scripture, this is the Gospel that Paul recieved from Jesus Himself, and which he taught.

[SDG]

No one is refuting that all our deeds should be done in Jesus name ... ... nor is anyone advocating that the name should not be invoked or called upon during baptism..... clearly it's biblical ... the question is who does the invoking and for what purpose.

We should call upon the name Jesus when we pray, first come to repentance, cast out demons and drive our car ... but the power is not in the incantation of the name ... or in it's vain repetition as some have become accustomed to

the power is in Him that has given the authority and he who has the power and in everything His name represents

.... nor does someone else calling upon it effectuate remission for another believer. I don't see that in scripture ... I see the opposite in Romans.

I know that's what all of us believe .... that it's not just the name but in who possesses the power...

but when we examine soteriological issues some would make the incantation of the name by the baptizer the be all and end all to effectuating remission.

The following scriptures make evident that simple invocation is not enough ....

Acts 19:13-16: "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."

Matthew 17:15-18: "And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."

One has to assume they tried to in the name of Jesus.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Evidently, simply knowing the name and using it ... is not God's measuring stick to salvation.

We are stating simply that invocation of the name by a third party does not mitigate salvation ...

Do I see precedent in the scriptures for this ....yes ...

do I see precedent to baptize in the power and authority given to us by Jesus ... yes ... onama ... indicates this .... in the Greek.

Is there anything wrong or damnable in baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost when we know that His name is Jesus ... no.

Do I see a 1st century pattern of baptisms performed in the name of the Lord Jesus, or Jesus Christ. to be biblical ... yes ...

Do I see dialogs of baptisms of apostles stating "I baptize you in Jesus name" ... no.

Nor will I find every sermon preached to unbelievers by Peter and Paul in Act that state that baptism is salvific ... sometimes is not even mentioned.

In each sermon they do require repentance and true belief, however.

But interestingly enough when we examine the dialog between Philip and the eunuch ... it seems important to Philip ... to know that the Eunuch confessed Jesus as the Son of God prior to immersing him ... it gives one pause ... to think that it was this confession of the name Jesus and a repentant heart that led to his salvation. Philip baptized him in this name ... invoking the authority given to him to do so ... but it wasn't the act in of itself that applied the blood for remission .... nor the incantation.
__________________

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

No one is refuting that all our deeds should be done in Jesus name ... ... nor is anyone advocating that the name should not be invoked or called upon during baptism..... clearly it's biblical ... the question is who does the invoking and for what purpose.

We should call upon the name Jesus when we pray, first come to repentance, cast out demons and drive our car ... but the power is not in the incantation of the name ... or in it's vain repetition as some have become accustomed to

the power is in Him that has given the authority and he who has the power and in everything His name represents

.... nor does someone else calling upon it effectuate remission for another believer. I don't see that in scripture ... I see the opposite in Romans.

I know that's what all of us believe .... that it's not just the name but in who possesses the power...

but when we examine soteriological issues some would make the incantation of the name by the baptizer the be all and end all to effectuating remission.

The following scriptures make evident that simple invocation is not enough ....

Acts 19:13-16: "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."

Matthew 17:15-18: "And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."

One has to assume they tried to in the name of Jesus.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Evidently, simply knowing the name and using it ... is not God's measuring stick to salvation.

We are stating simply that invocation of the name by a third party does not mitigate salvation ...

Do I see precedent in the scriptures for this ....yes ...

do I see precedent to baptize in the power and authority given to us by Jesus ... yes ... onama ... indicates this .... in the Greek.

Is there anything wrong or damnable in baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost when we know that His name is Jesus ... no.

Do I see a 1st century pattern of baptisms performed in the name of the Lord Jesus, or Jesus Christ. to be biblical ... yes ...

Do I see dialogs of baptisms of apostles stating "I baptize you in Jesus name" ... no.

Nor will I find every sermon preached to unbelievers by Peter and Paul in Act that state that baptism is salvific ... sometimes is not even mentioned.

In each sermon they do require repentance and true belief, however.

But interestingly enough when we examine the dialog between Philip and the eunuch ... it seems important to Philip ... to know that the Eunuch confessed Jesus as the Son of God prior to immersing him ... it gives one pause ... to think that it was this confession of the name Jesus and a repentant heart that led to his salvation. Philip baptized him in this name ... invoking the authority given to him to do so ... but it wasn't the act in of itself that applied the blood for remission .... nor the incantation.
__________________

Dan are you saying that baptism in Jesus name means ONLY the person being baptized has to call on the name of Jesus before, during of just after water baptism and that the baptizer does nothing but dunks them?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Dan are you saying that baptism in Jesus name means ONLY the person being baptized has to call on the name of Jesus before, during of just after water baptism and that the baptizer does nothing but dunks them?

I'm not Dan, but I will put my two cents worth. If we are going to be called "Apostolic" and a "new testament church", obviously one would think we would want to be biblically based in our baptism. Baptism was a ritual cleansing incorportated into the mosaic law. If a woman was on her monthly, she would go and "cleanse" herself. If you were healed of leprosy, etc. one would obey the law and cleanse themselves. These baptism pools were all over the holy land and were called "Mikvahs". When Peter preached in Acts 2, he told them to go wash according to the "new covenant" which was Christ. They were no longer to cleanse themselves according to the "old covenant" which was the law. Also, it was a public confession as to their new found faith in this messiah called Jesus Christ. In those days to public confess ones faith away from the law to follow Jesus, was inviting persecution if not death from the religious community. Three thousand obeyed Peter and went and washed themselves. I am not saying an individual is not saved by invocation, rather biblically speaking, it is always up to the believer to call on Christ for salvation.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Without trying to promote any doctine, I am left with only posting scriptures without being able to make my point. So, I'll allow the Apostle Paul to take my place.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

According to scripture, this is the Gospel that Paul recieved from Jesus Himself, and which he taught.

No mention of repentance....so how do we get saved according to the gospel?

The Gospel, which Paul preached, must have included also salvation by faith, without the works of the law because Paul said
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
Gal 2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
Gal 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Yet we don't find that in the verses you posted...they were either left out by Paul or somehow implied or included in the definition of preaching Christ's death, buriel and resurrection

In fact one has to wonder why the connection between believing the gospel and being baptized

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Also one has to wonder how can one obey the gospel when all it is is telling someone about Jesus being killed, buried and resurrected...

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No mention of repentance....so how do we get saved according to the gospel?

Repenting doesn't save you. Repenting is considered works as is baptism. Nowhere does the bible once state that in order to obtain salvation you have to repent. We are saved because we believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord. Paul clearly said what the gospel by which he was saved. He left nothing out.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

These verses leave nothing out, they clearly state how to be saved. YOU WILL BE SAVED. It doesn't get any clearly than that.

Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


It doesn't matter how righteous we try to be, those deeds will not saves us.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The Gospel, which Paul preached, must have included also salvation by faith, without the works of the law because Paul said
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
Gal 2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
Gal 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Yet we don't find that in the verses you posted...they were either left out by Paul or somehow implied or included in the definition of preaching Christ's death, buriel and resurrection

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Its saying the same thing just worded differently.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

In fact one has to wonder why the connection between believing the gospel and being baptized

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Doesn't mention salvation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Also one has to wonder how can one obey the gospel when all it is is telling someone about Jesus being killed, buried and resurrected...

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Doesn't mention salvation

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God?

Doesn't mention salvation.

Act 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Act 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

[Praxeas]

Well there you have it. We don't need to repent to be saved. I never thought I would see or hear anyone say that. Most non-OPs I know of say you must repent to be saved

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well there you have it. We don't need to repent to be saved. I never thought I would see or hear anyone say that. Most non-OPs I know of say you must repent to be saved

I am surprised that you are surprised. I guess this means I can go back to a barstool now, seeing as how I will always believe. If it wasn't such a twisted perversion of God's Word it would almost be funny. Amazing where the slippery slope can lead.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV)