too bad Jesus and the early Chrisitan church were the original comunists, huh??
Ignorant comment...
__________________ For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! (Gal 5:13-15/ NKJV)
Jesus was a proponent of more communist ideology than anyone else in the history of the world until Marx...
The early church ACTUALLY LIVED communist lives, sharing everything they had (or did you skip that verse)???
I realize in modern America communism = evil, but the fact of the matter is that socialism/communism is the IDEAL way to live, the only problem is it is essentially impossible to actually pull off since people are evil....
but Jesus proposed many communistic things and the early church, from what we know about them, had what is the closest to socialistic society in the history of the world...
You are misrepresenting the meaning of governmental communism.
Jesus did not advocate, preach or practice a political government where all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a self-perpetuating political party.
I will agree with you that the early church did display voluntary collectivist principles, but they did not practice communism.
__________________ For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! (Gal 5:13-15/ NKJV)
You are misrepresenting the meaning of governmental communism.
Jesus did not advocate, preach or practice a political government where all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a self-perpetuating political party.
I will agree with you that the early church did display voluntary collectivist principles, but they did not practice communism.
that is what it turned into, that wasn't what was attempted at happening...
What they attempted to do was create a socialistic state... It didn't work, but the ideals are still the ame...
Yes, there are bad things about communism, but the fact is it was just people trying to have the same exact ideals that Jesus espoused (taht being socialistic ones)...
Stop listening to the lame propoganda that all communism/socialism is bad... It isn't... Its just people trying to reach an ideal where everyone has all thier needs met and no one is in poverty... did it work? No... But that's because they didn't FOLLOW THROUGH on waht the initial plan was, not because the initial plan was flawed...
that is what it turned into, that wasn't what was attempted at happening...
What they attempted to do was create a socialistic state... It didn't work, but the ideals are still the ame...
Yes, there are bad things about communism, but the fact is it was just people trying to have the same exact ideals that Jesus espoused (taht being socialistic ones)...
Stop listening to the lame propoganda that all communism/socialism is bad... It isn't... Its just people trying to reach an ideal where everyone has all thier needs met and no one is in poverty... did it work? No... But that's because they didn't FOLLOW THROUGH on waht the initial plan was, not because the initial plan was flawed...
one more point. ALL communism/socialism is not only bad but anti-thetical and evil and distructive to both humanity and to the spiritual health of mankind.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
one more point. ALL communism/socialism is not only bad but anti-thetical and evil and distructive to both humanity and to the spiritual health of mankind.
Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...
And Paul didn't take up a collection for the Jerusalem church to help them in thier poverty after the Jerusalem council... Its actually thought of by more scholars as a pay-off to allow him to preach that the gentiles don't have to follow the law...
Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...
I posted before about the ellipses inherent in the phrase, "... had all things in common..." (Acts 2:44 and Acts 4:32). Peter expounds on this principle showing the respect that the early church community had for the private possession of goods; "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?" (Acts 5:4). Both before and after the possession was sold it belonged to Ananias and Sapphira. They were free to determine what become of the funds. The point where they ran afoul was in trying to deceive the community about their intentions. But the possession itself, Peter emphatically states- was "thine own."
That's not real communism. Real communism would have dictated that the possession belonged to the church and Ananias and Sapphira had no power over it at all.
Concerning collections at church, Paul says, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2). The funds were to be collected from individuals based upon the abilities (and willingness) of those individuals to give. No real communism here.
As Sister A. and others have pointed out, the problem with modern Communism is that it is a philosophical system based wholly upon materialism - the idea that there is no Spiritual realm. We have a bone to pick with the Communists long before we even get to economic issues.
Redeemedcynic, I think you have an idealized view of socialism/communism when you say, "[Jesus] held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on..." There have been "communistic" movements in history (the Lollards in Britain and the Peasant Revolt in Germany) that were at least partially based upon the Christian teaching. But the example of Peter in Acts 5, seems to me to be the Apostle's emphatically saying "No" to communism.
In Acts 5, they had an ideal situation for a communist revolt. Peter and the others could have easily used the circumstances to plunder Ananias and any one else with material goods. Instead, in a courtroom-like setting, Peter argues emphatically, the "possession is yours," and "it's in your own power what happens with that possession..." thus stifling any notions of communism even planting root there.
The ideal of communism is truly a noble and good ideal, in my opinion. However, it really is best to leave it in the realm of ideals as we make an appeal to one another's hearts to be open and giving. But human experience has proven throughout history, however well intended the motivation, communism just doesn't work in this world with the human species; at least not on a large scale. Small communes have done okay, but nations have impoverished themselves with it.
Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...
And Paul didn't take up a collection for the Jerusalem church to help them in thier poverty after the Jerusalem council... Its actually thought of by more scholars as a pay-off to allow him to preach that the gentiles don't have to follow the law...
same "scholars" that think Jesus was the son of Mary and a roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera?
get real. that is a load of bunk and you ought to know better! Paul had to BRIBE the Apostles so he could preach?
that is wacked out man.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
that is what it turned into, that wasn't what was attempted at happening...
What they attempted to do was create a socialistic state... It didn't work, but the ideals are still the ame...
Yes, there are bad things about communism, but the fact is it was just people trying to have the same exact ideals that Jesus espoused (taht being socialistic ones)...
Stop listening to the lame propoganda that all communism/socialism is bad... It isn't... Its just people trying to reach an ideal where everyone has all thier needs met and no one is in poverty... did it work? No... But that's because they didn't FOLLOW THROUGH on waht the initial plan was, not because the initial plan was flawed...
Communism doesn't work because it is based on a flawed premise: That men are inherently good. A premise that a guy like you should theoretically disagree with. Marx's plan calls for a gradual procession from the dictatorship of the proletariat to pure communism. The Soviets never got beyond a socialist dictatorial oligarchy because (surprise, surprise) the leaders were corrupt and reserved privelige and extras unto themselves.
Communism didn't work for the early church either. It is not truly known what was tried in Jerusalem. It may have just been extreme generosity, but it is unlikely that they lived in a commune. They sold their extraneous possessions, but probably not their homes and beds. It simply isn't known exactly what they did. Whatever they did, no effort was made to duplicate it in other cities.
Communism didn't work for the pilgrims.
Communism and socialism are simply the shiny hollow apple that is used to win the approval of the masses for some other form of government.
__________________
Engineering solutions for theological problems.
Despite today's rising cost of living, it remains popular.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
Communism doesn't work because it is based on a flawed premise: That men are inherently good. A premise that a guy like you should theoretically disagree with. Marx's plan calls for a gradual procession from the dictatorship of the proletariat to pure communism. The Soviets never got beyond a socialist dictatorial oligarchy because (surprise, surprise) the leaders were corrupt and reserved privelige and extras unto themselves.
Communism didn't work for the early church either. It is not truly known what was tried in Jerusalem. It may have just been extreme generosity, but it is unlikely that they lived in a commune. They sold their extraneous possessions, but probably not their homes and beds. It simply isn't known exactly what they did. Whatever they did, no effort was made to duplicate it in other cities.
Communism didn't work for the pilgrims.
Communism and socialism are simply the shiny hollow apple that is used to win the approval of the masses for some other form of government.
the point ist hat the early church (and Christ himself) held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on...
No, it can't be done by fallen humans, it will never work here, but to say communism is evil or the antithesis of Christianity is absurd and requires ignoring a large portion of the Bible...
Hybrid Mode
