The other 33 rules for UPC preachers -In the interest of being fair and balanced...

Originally Posted by pelathais

I disagree, respectfully. First off, a clarification- if the "fornication" happened at a point in time "before Calvary" in a minister's life, it does not count to disqualify the preacher. We're only talking about sexual misconduct after the minister has already been licensed. If you stray then- you are disquailified for life.

And it is controversial- what about the power of Christ to redeem all sinners? What about a second chance and the hope that such an offer can give to the fallen? These are tough issues. I don't think either side has a "slam dunk" case.

But I personally feel good about a body of ministers who do have a line drawn that they all mutually agree cannot be crossed. They don't throw you out of the Kkingdom of God over this; the just have this line among themselves. I think it's honorable.

I think it should depend on when/how it happened... if it was something where they used thier authority as a minister to force the sex somehow, then, yeah, they shouldn't be allowed...

but otherwise, aren't we limiting/hindering God???

It isn't honorable unless ALL sin is treated the same way... God doesn't see a difference between one sin and another and, really, niether should we (note: yes, there are a few exceptions, having sex with someone should not be one of them as long as it is a mistake and not something more serious)

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

I think it should depend on when/how it happened... if it was something where they used thier authority as a minister to force the sex somehow, then, yeah, they shouldn't be allowed...

but otherwise, aren't we limiting/hindering God???

It isn't honorable unless ALL sin is treated the same way... God doesn't see a difference between one sin and another and, really, niether should we (note: yes, there are a few exceptions, having sex with someone should not be one of them as long as it is a mistake and not something more serious)

The practicle application of the divorce/remarriage issue among UPC ministers is applied at the local district level. A minister who is "the victim" of divorce is usually allowed to stay and even remarry. The district board however can and usually does a "due and thorough investigation." This would include an examination of the divorce court's records and testimony from the "ex" and other family members.

There are remarkable circumstances that can be involved in different cases. That's why it usually is a case-by-case type of judgement.

It isn't honorable unless ALL sin is treated the same way... God doesn't see a difference between one sin and another and, really, niether should we (note: yes, there are a few exceptions, having sex with someone should not be one of them as long as it is a mistake and not something more serious

You have a point, however, again I'm trying to see it from the "practicle application" angle. The sin of a minister watching Britney Spears do her thing is not as damaging to the ministry as if Britney Spears were a minister herself. I think most are trying to avoid having a situation where they have someone behaving outrageously and bringing shame upon everyone else.

Sexual sin on the part of a minister often involves a person using a "position of power" to gain sexual favors from another. This "position of power" line of reasoning is so prevelant that most states forbid sexual relations between psychologists and their patients and medical doctors and their patients. Many Universities have similar policies for sexual contact between professors and their students. In the military a commander cannot have sex with any one under his/her direct command.

There's just a principle involved about using a postion to get sexual favors. The UPC says, "Do that one time and you're outta here." I happen to respect that stand.

[Sam]

what it all boils down to is this:

ministers selectively follow the rules, some they follow and some they ignore.

enforcement of the rules is also done selectively depending on the district, who is in charge, who is on the board, who the person is who is not following the rules, and which rules he/she is disregarding

that's just human nature and politics

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

what it all boils down to is this:

ministers selectively follow the rules, some they follow and some they ignore.

enforcement of the rules is also done selectively depending on the district, who is in charge, who is on the board, who the person is who is not following the rules, and which rules he/she is disregarding

that's just human nature and politics

You're right. What goes on there is pretty much the same as what goes on anywhere else.

But what about that other thread: Do "OPs" Really Have More Power than other Christians?

Kind of hard to make the case that there's really "a difference" when, if when we need to defend OP's we say, "There's no real difference after all."

Originally Posted by Sam

what it all boils down to is this:

ministers selectively follow the rules, some they follow and some they ignore.

enforcement of the rules is also done selectively depending on the district, who is in charge, who is on the board, who the person is who is not following the rules, and which rules he/she is disregarding

that's just human nature and politics

Which is why in the church God set up there were no rules like this...

Originally Posted by pelathais

The practicle application of the divorce/remarriage issue among UPC ministers is applied at the local district level. A minister who is "the victim" of divorce is usually allowed to stay and even remarry. The district board however can and usually does a "due and thorough investigation." This would include an examination of the divorce court's records and testimony from the "ex" and other family members.

There are remarkable circumstances that can be involved in different cases. That's why it usually is a case-by-case type of judgement.


You have a point, however, again I'm trying to see it from the "practicle application" angle. The sin of a minister watching Britney Spears do her thing is not as damaging to the ministry as if Britney Spears were a minister herself. I think most are trying to avoid having a situation where they have someone behaving outrageously and bringing shame upon everyone else.

Sexual sin on the part of a minister often involves a person using a "position of power" to gain sexual favors from another. This "position of power" line of reasoning is so prevelant that most states forbid sexual relations between psychologists and their patients and medical doctors and their patients. Many Universities have similar policies for sexual contact between professors and their students. In the military a commander cannot have sex with any one under his/her direct command.

There's just a principle involved about using a postion to get sexual favors. The UPC says, "Do that one time and you're outta here." I happen to respect that stand.

but the problem you describe with superior officers only applies to someone who is in thier church...

I agree, if a minister did sleep with one of thier congregation, they shouldn't be allowed to minister, just like someone in the military who sleeps with someone in thier command isn't given command again...

But to ban them for life for sleeping with a random person is, to me, absurd...

Again, do we make this stand with lying, with cheating at something else, with any other thing in the whole world???

and we're not just talking pastors, here, we're talking "ministers", period... I could understand a little better if it were just they couldn't be a head pastor (read: they always had to have someone over them), but it isn't that... its they are not allowed to be licensed ever again...

and that's just too harsh IMO... and it takes away from God... Peter sinned greatly after his conversion, so did Paul and James (just thier couple of arguments over things and money, etc... they were power struggles, and ministers having power struggles is worse than having sex with someone)

Or look in the Old Testament... Not only did God forgive and use David after he sinned with Bathsheeba... HE NEVER STOPPED USING DAVID!! There wasn't a period of time letting David's sins get in the past even... God never at any point went "David... you messed up too much, sorry, can't use you know more"

But we force God to say that to people ourselves... Could a human get any more evil than when they play God??

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

but the problem you describe with superior officers only applies to someone who is in thier church...

I agree, if a minister did sleep with one of thier congregation, they shouldn't be allowed to minister, just like someone in the military who sleeps with someone in thier command isn't given command again...

But to ban them for life for sleeping with a random person is, to me, absurd...

Again, do we make this stand with lying, with cheating at something else, with any other thing in the whole world???

and we're not just talking pastors, here, we're talking "ministers", period... I could understand a little better if it were just they couldn't be a head pastor (read: they always had to have someone over them), but it isn't that... its they are not allowed to be licensed ever again...

and that's just too harsh IMO... and it takes away from God... Peter sinned greatly after his conversion, so did Paul and James (just thier couple of arguments over things and money, etc... they were power struggles, and ministers having power struggles is worse than having sex with someone)

Or look in the Old Testament... Not only did God forgive and use David after he sinned with Bathsheeba... HE NEVER STOPPED USING DAVID!! There wasn't a period of time letting David's sins get in the past even... God never at any point went "David... you messed up too much, sorry, can't use you know more"

But we force God to say that to people ourselves... Could a human get any more evil than when they play God??

Again, I don't disagree with your principle here, it's just how do we implement this ideal into today's world. As far as an org is concerned- we're asking people to stake their careers, their ministries and a whole lot of OUR money on the performance of the people they endorse in the ministry.

There's obviously no way to police every sin that might befall another human being - we need God's help to search our own hearts! But for the more damaging and egregious offenses we do need something of line that no one should cross.

And no one in the org is saying that a "fallen" minister can't be used by God ever again. The UPC certainly doesn't teach that they can not be saved! The UPC does not - and cannot even if they wanted to - prevent a "restored" minister from practicing a ministry either witnin the UPC fellowship or in other groups. They just have that one line that they say, "If you cross this, you don't get your card back."

Thankfully the Kingdom of God is not dependant upon the cards you carry in your wallet. But personally, I respect an org that takes a stand like this. They're not tryin g to "play God." They're just trying to avoid costly litigation and too many embarassing headlines.

[StillStanding]

Wow! Sounds like there's a bunch of lying hypocrite preachers in the UPCI! Just kidding, of course!

I would imagine that there are very few who follow the manual to the letter!

But....we know that the manual is not equal to the bible, don't we?????

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The practicle application of the divorce/remarriage issue among UPC ministers is applied at the local district level. A minister who is "the victim" of divorce is usually allowed to stay and even remarry. The district board however can and usually does a "due and thorough investigation." This would include an examination of the divorce court's records and testimony from the "ex" and other family members.

There are remarkable circumstances that can be involved in different cases. That's why it usually is a case-by-case type of judgement.


You have a point, however, again I'm trying to see it from the "practicle application" angle. The sin of a minister watching Britney Spears do her thing is not as damaging to the ministry as if Britney Spears were a minister herself. I think most are trying to avoid having a situation where they have someone behaving outrageously and bringing shame upon everyone else.

Sexual sin on the part of a minister often involves a person using a "position of power" to gain sexual favors from another. This "position of power" line of reasoning is so prevelant that most states forbid sexual relations between psychologists and their patients and medical doctors and their patients. Many Universities have similar policies for sexual contact between professors and their students. In the military a commander cannot have sex with any one under his/her direct command.

There's just a principle involved about using a postion to get sexual favors. The UPC says, "Do that one time and you're outta here." I happen to respect that stand.

some district boards idea of investigation is to start rumors about the investigated and sew lies, fact, not my opinion, dt