Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I am having supper with my pastor tonight.

I do what he tells meto do.

The deal is, he respects me and my walk with God, and basically offers guidance when he feels it is needful.

If for whatever reason he felt to give me some strong admonition, I would receive it and obey him, unless he told me to do something that was unscriptural.

But I trust him and know him well enough to know that he won't do that.

I'm with Barb, this is being overcomplicated.

I understand that if you believe that ONE guy who you acknowledge as your pastor tells you you need to move from where you are, you need to move. Afterall, that's what obedience is all about!

No body has to OBEY their guides. They need to thoughtfully and soberly consider the qualifications of their guides and the witness of their guide's counsels.

But following is all about free choice when it comes to a guide.

Not following a ruler is all about rebellion.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I understand that if you believe that ONE guy who you acknowledge as your pastor tells you you need to move from where you are, you need to move. Afterall, that's what obedience is all about!

No body has to OBEY their guides. They need to thoughtfully and soberly consider the qualifications of their guides and the witness of their guide's counsels.

But following is all about free choice when it comes to a guide.

Not following a ruler is all about rebellion.

There you go with "ruler" again.

[Barb]

Okay, Bro. Pew...here's a question...

We have been quoting the first part of this Scripture...

Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:

What say ye of the rest of this verse?!

for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
KJV

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

Okay, Bro. Pew...here's a question...

We have been quoting the first part of this Scripture...

Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:

What say ye of the rest of this verse?!

for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
KJV

Barb,
Your guestion would be better directed toward Coonskinner. He has consistently provided words that you can find agreement with in your spirit. Please ask him to provide his interpretation.

IF my view troubles your spirit (causes much sighing), it should not be considered without a second or third witness.

If they (these rulers) are giving an account of MY LIFE, you and the Skinner of Coon are right in this whole matter, they are certainly folks who have the RULE in my life and I am commanded by scripture tor OBEY them. And when the scripture says, let every servant answer to his own master, SUBJECTs would answer to Pastors and Pastors would answer to CHRIST. Afterall, a man can not SERVE TWO masters.

and not only that...
these folks in Heb 13:17 have become my mediator between me and whoever they are giving this account to ABOUT me. If they are not in a role of mediator, what are they doing giving an account of my life to any one?

I reject this interpretation of the witness of Heb 13:17 as being faulty when considered in the larger witness of scripture and the clear witness that the man Christ Jesus is mediator between me and God.

These folks must give account for what they have been given and what they have done with what they have received. But they were not given SUBJECTs to have dominion over. They were given giftings, understandings, revelations, and authority over spiritual things.

Every servant that has received from God will give account for how they used what they have received.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Barb,
Your guestion would be better directed toward Coonskinner. He has consistently provided words that you can find agreement with in your spirit. Please ask him to provide his interpretation.

IF my view troubles your spirit (causes much sighing), it should not be considered without a second or third witness.

If they (these rulers) are giving an account of MY LIFE, you and the Skinner of Coon are right in this whole matter, they are certainly folks who have the RULE in my life and I am commanded by scripture tor OBEY them. And when the scripture says, let every servant answer to his own master, SUBJECTs would answer to Pastors and Pastors would answer to CHRIST. Afterall, a man can not SERVE TWO masters.

and not only that...
these folks in Heb 13:17 have become my mediator between me and whoever they are giving this account to ABOUT me. If they are not in a role of mediator, what are they doing giving an account of my life to any one?

I reject this interpretation of the witness of Heb 13:17 as being faulty when considered in the larger witness of scripture and the clear witness that the man Christ Jesus is mediator between me and God.

These folks must give account for what they have been given and what they have done with what they have received. But they were not given SUBJECTs to have dominion over. They were given giftings, understandings, revelations, and authority over spiritual things.

Every servant that has received from God will give account for how they used what they have received.

The writer of Hebrews said that if their account was with grief, that would be unprofitable for you, not themselves.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The writer of Hebrews said that if their account was with grief, that would be unprofitable for you, not themselves.

Sure, because the witness is not about how we should OBEY someone who has RULE over us, but about how we should FOLLOW those Guides/leaders who God has provided as gifts along our journey.

Only an blind idiot would reject the profitable-ness of following somebody who has gone before (an elder) in the type of matters I am presently walking into or through.

But come on CS, every good Methodist minister could provide wisdom he or she has learned from their journey in life and consideration of scripture. But I do not think for a second you would advance a view point that says...OBEY them or even FOLOW them.

The reason is because each of us must be led by spirit to QUALIFY any one we choose to follow. (that is what makes me accountable for my own choices). I will not go to heaven for obeying a blind guide.

Things like ...
Does the guy I am following have evidence that God is with him?
Does he only have one wife?
Is he a novice?
Does he have a good report with them that are without?

If he doesn't, why would I following his guidance? And if I am to qualify (yes the treaded "judge" word), he does NOT have RULE concerning me as an individual --period, no middle ground on this.

The context of Heb 13:17 is counsel for how I should thoughtfully consider and act within the presence of servants that God has provided with giftings for our own journey and the edification of his own body.

[tbpew]

Is Paul saying:
FOLLOW me?

or

Is Paul saying FOLLOW the way I FOLLOW CHRIST.

Is our command to follow Paul or to follow Christ?

The scripture is being given as light, truth is being illuminated. Are we to be follower's of Paul?

Are we disciples of the one we follow?

Are men making disciples unto themselves by advancing a premise by saying FOLOW ME because God has put me OVER you.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Barb,
Your guestion would be better directed toward Coonskinner. He has consistently provided words that you can find agreement with in your spirit. Please ask him to provide his interpretation.

IF my view troubles your spirit (causes much sighing), it should not be considered without a second or third witness.

If they (these rulers) are giving an account of MY LIFE, you and the Skinner of Coon are right in this whole matter, they are certainly folks who have the RULE in my life and I am commanded by scripture tor OBEY them. And when the scripture says, let every servant answer to his own master, SUBJECTs would answer to Pastors and Pastors would answer to CHRIST. Afterall, a man can not SERVE TWO masters.

and not only that...
these folks in Heb 13:17 have become my mediator between me and whoever they are giving this account to ABOUT me. If they are not in a role of mediator, what are they doing giving an account of my life to any one?

I reject this interpretation of the witness of Heb 13:17 as being faulty when considered in the larger witness of scripture and the clear witness that the man Christ Jesus is mediator between me and God.

These folks must give account for what they have been given and what they have done with what they have received. But they were not given SUBJECTs to have dominion over. They were given giftings, understandings, revelations, and authority over spiritual things.

Every servant that has received from God will give account for how they used what they have received.

Bro. Pew, respectfully, as I do NOT wish to be argumentative, had I wanted to ask Coonskinner, I would have done so. I did not because I am fairly certain of the response. Yes, much of what he writes I am in agreement with, hoever, that does not mean I cannot discuss a topic with someone with a dissenting view.

I asked YOU because the discussion has gone back in forth between us on this.

As for troubling my spirit...there are many things that trouble my spirit, but your opinion of pastors/authority does not "trouble" me. That is your opinion and you have every right to be wrong.

I will say again though that I think this subject has exceeded the complicated stage...just my humble and unlearned opinion.

As I haven't eaten since breakfast and feel the need to fix chicken tacos, I will leave this subject for a time. As the great General said, "I shall return," and in doing so, try to respond to some points you were making.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Barb

Bro. Pew, respectfully, as I do NOT wish to be argumentative, had I wanted to ask Coonskinner, I would have done so. I did not because I am fairly certain of the response. Yes, much of what he writes I am in agreement with, hoever, that does not mean I cannot discuss a topic with someone with a dissenting view.

I asked YOU because the discussion has gone back in forth between us on this.

As for troubling my spirit...there are many things that trouble my spirit, but your opinion of pastors/authority does not "trouble" me. That is your opinion and you have every right to be wrong.

I will say again though that I think this subject has exceeded the complicated stage...just my humble and unlearned opinion.

As I haven't eaten since breakfast and feel the need to fix chicken tacos, I will leave this subject for a time. As the great General said, "I shall return," and in doing so, try to respond to some points you were making.

Did somebody say tacos?

[tbpew]

barb,
after you grab a bite, why not post the uncomplicated simple conclusion of the matter that is established in your spirit and understanding of the scripture?

I have asked Mizpeh to do this and I do not want anyone to think I am playing favorites!

So to help serve simplicity....
I believe pastors (like all members of God's Kingdom) have authority over various spiritual entities (demons, principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness )
and
I believe all temporal things have various systems of authority in their administration,
BUT
what is the authority that a Pastor has OVER a member of God's own body?
What can a pastor command any member of God's own body to do?
What pastor can take liberty from and put a member of God's own body in bonds?