The Death Penalty

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Dear BrotherEastman

I believe you may be expanding the argument slightly to include all prisoners. You know in old England there were two types of crimes misdemeanors and felonies much like we have today. The difference was death was the only punishment for felonies. It did not matter if it were rape, robbery, or merely pouching one of the king's deer.

As far as them being treated well, they are not. Perhaps a tour or two in a real prison ministry would change the view which is acquired by watching tele er sorry, by watching videos.

Also as a "christian" nation (which I would maintain we no longer are but that would be a topic for a different thread) are you honestly proposing that rehabilitation should be totally foregone??

Without vocational training, counseling, and the such how could you possibly hope that there would not be repeat offense??

Without being foolishly naive on the one hand, is it impossible to show love on the other?

As far as rehabilitation and/or punishment, our prison systems doesn't do either adequately.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

As far as rehabilitation and/or punishment, our prison systems doesn't do either adequately.

That is largely true. Occasionally the punishment is actually excessive. However, we make virtually no attempt at rehabilitation.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

That is largely true. Occasionally the punishment is actually excessive. However, we make virtually no attempt at rehabilitation.

Not a sarcastic question. What is your basis for deeming punishment as excessive?

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Not a sarcastic question. What is your basis for deeming punishment as excessive?

Fair question

Dave my basis is being involved in literally thousands of criminal cases.

If your question was what is excessive: Life in prison for multiple convictions of drug USE. Once again use not dealing. (And never once any attempt at rehab, not even ordering NA meetings in jail)

I once had two cases in the same week. One boy sold powered sugar, the other told a police officer he wanted to sell him forty kilos. In Texas the first is sale of a simulated substance punishable by a maximum of two years, but mandatory probation on first offense. The other considered constructive delivery was punishable by up to life in prison even though the state never proved (nor had to) that any drugs actually existed! But wasn't it virtually the same crime?

In California it is possible to get life in prison for a series of bad checks.

And yes on the other end there are ridiculously light sentences as well.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Fair question

Dave my basis is being involved in literally thousands of criminal cases.

If your question was what is excessive: Life in prison for multiple convictions of drug USE. Once again use not dealing. (And never once any attempt at rehab, not even ordering NA meetings in jail)

I once had two cases in the same week. One boy sold powered sugar, the other told a police officer he wanted to sell him forty kilos. In Texas the first is sale of a simulated substance punishable by a maximum of two years, but mandatory probation on first offense. The other considered constructive delivery was punishable by up to life in prison even though the state never proved (nor had to) that any drugs actually existed! But wasn't it virtually the same crime?

In California it is possible to get life in prison for a series of bad checks.

And yes on the other end there are ridiculously light sentences as well.

I'm of the conviction that in the US we have no objective basis for our standard of punishment. Our system is arbitrary and inconsistent at best. It obviously is not working.

How does one(or a government) deem sufficient and appropriate punishment?
How do you KNOW that drug use should not be a lifetime offense? Is this knowledge even possible?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I'm of the conviction that in the US we have no objective basis for our standard of punishment. Our system is arbitrary and inconsistent at best. It obviously is not working.

How does one(or a government) deem sufficient and appropriate punishment?
How do you KNOW that drug use should not be a lifetime offense? Is this knowledge even possible?

Great comments & questions

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I'm of the conviction that in the US we have no objective basis for our standard of punishment. Our system is arbitrary and inconsistent at best. It obviously is not working.

How does one(or a government) deem sufficient and appropriate punishment?
How do you KNOW that drug use should not be a lifetime offense? Is this knowledge even possible?

If you are resorting to such existential relativism how do I know I exist or that you posted to this forum?

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

If you are resorting to such existential relativism how do I know I exist or that you posted to this forum?

If you don't really want to deal with the heart of the issue, that's fine but as I see it public morality reflects social convention, nothing more than that and that is a mockery of God and His word especially when a large percentage of our population call themselves Christians.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

That is largely true. Occasionally the punishment is actually excessive. However, we make virtually no attempt at rehabilitation.

Would that be because prisoners are taking advantage of the system? If our prisons were really prisons, then they wouldn't want to go back.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Would that be because prisoners are taking advantage of the system? If our prisons were really prisons, then they wouldn't want to go back.

Punishment will never be severe enough to redeem a man whether it be spiritually or simply in a manner of civic redemption.

Harsher punishments do not make nicer men.

Rehabilitation is the key. Real rehabilitation.

This would, to me, require the church becoming more active in the prisons (did not Jesus say I was in prison and you visited me not).

Jesus IS the answer... we have the answer.

Punishing them harder won't show them a better way. If they have their time to serve... then they need to serve it... but they need a real, relevant, one foot in front of the other rehabilitation that comes from the word & spirit of God.

That is their only hope. What is born of the flesh is flesh. They need a new birth.