Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Pro 11:14

"Where NO counsel is, the people FALL: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety."

Pro 15:22

"Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are ESTABLISHED."

Pro 24:6

"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."

I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.

You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.

You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!

That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.

Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.

We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.

Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.

When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.

I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.

Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.

The Lord love your heart.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Pro 11:14

"Where NO counsel is, the people FALL: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety."

Pro 15:22

"Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are ESTABLISHED."

Pro 24:6

"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."

I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.

You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.

You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!

That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.

Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.

We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.

Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.

When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.

I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.

Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.

The Lord love your heart.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.

What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?

While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God. As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.

That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.

Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another. That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.

When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.

I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.

It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"

Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear (I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.

What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?

I commend critical thinking and placing what we believe under inspection.
Now let's go through this bit by bit so you can understand what I was trying to say to Rico.

If we really look at the true system that God chose for His Body we see a group that are accountable to God and GOOD COUNSEL. I have been around people who have told me God told them this and God told them that, and all while their family members had these glazed over looks in their eyes. They usually quote the scripture that you should obey God rather than man, but yet they never consider the rest of the context of that scripture that proves that the apostles were a group of submitted ministers who worked out what God told them to. When I say that, I mean they had meetings to discuss visions (As Peter on the rooftop and seeing the sheet let down from heaven) and discussions concerning false doctrine.

We have no lone rangers breaking from the group and going out alone by themselves. We have not one example in the NT of any lone preacher going out and telling the rest of the Brothers that he is going to follow God and that he has his own personal revelation. We do have plenty of instances where an individual who gathers people unto themselves and surround themselves with Yes-Men who reinforce the would-be-leaders fantasy and cause un-suspecting souls to be lead astray.

The scriptures that I had quoted nails down the principle that we are not to be without Brothers who can tell us that they DON'T SEE what we may be seeing, or DON'T UNDERSTAND what we are trying to relay to them.

If God is telling you something and he is laying it on your mind, Jesus is also able to make the way for you to present your argument in a manner that can convince anyone who LOVES God. Also those who are mentors, pastors, elders, preachers and leaders who are counseling you have been around you for a good amount of time and have come to know your faithfulness.

I'm not talking about a despot or some control freak; I'm talking about men of God who are accountable to men of God. Let's talk about a good situation and not a bad situation. Bad situations are no brainers and the Word of God tells us how to deal with Nicolatian spirits.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God.

No, we are never alone if we are following Jesus Christ as the One True Living God. When we are walking alone it's usually because what we are doing is warped and weird. Also because we repel those around us and we WON'T take counsel and those who we are supposed to be accountable with. We find when we have rejected all their counsel and since people have their own lives and need to carry on, they have no choice but to allow us drift off into our own agenda.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.

Sounds great, but alas that's never the case. If we are truly submitted to our PASTOR Jesus Christ then we will have no problem being assembled together with Brothers and Sisters of like precious faith. We will also submit ourselves one to another and therefore we will avoid kookiness and power trips that make our families cringe. Wives and children who get a white knuckled look in their faces every time their husband's and father's get a gleam in their eyes and the pious tones of THUS SAYETH THE LORD! When a Brother can submit to his fellow Brothers and their godly advice, then families are overjoyed!

Originally Posted by Theophilus

That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.

I agree with you 100% but that can be avoidable when we have Brothers who can tell us to come back to the planet earth. When we believe our own PR we are off to a place where we may never return. I would rather die in obscurity and win souls who love holiness and Acts 2:38 than some one who thinks they're God's gift to the world.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another.

Again I agree a 100%, but if we cannot submit to other ministers who are walking with God, we can never expect to have anyone consider our counsel

Originally Posted by Theophilus

That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.

You're correct. No argument from me.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.

AMEN!!! IN JESUS NAME!!!

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.

I think we better seek some counsel way prior before doing a double flip into the Grand Canyon. With much counsel make war, I don't do anything without prayer, fasting, and considering the counsel of godly Brothers who have Jesus on their mind. I have watched many one man shows go forward for years and watched in horror as they destroyed people's lives. I like Brother Rico and seeing him ask the question to seek advice is a good sign in the right direction, I still pray that he would find solid men.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"

I'm not talking about that at all, I'm not talking about despotic mindsets that are stuck in their own persona and aurora. I'm talking about godly Brothers who are solid men who want to see things happen.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear

Anybody can say anything but let’s see it go through the gauntlet of counsel and see how attitudes and feelings are really formed. If we have the call God will lead us and give us a mouth to speak with.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

(I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.

I hear what you're saying I just hope our Brother seeks the mind of God and the counsel of Apostolic Brothers.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.

What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?

While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God. As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.

That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.

Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another. That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.

When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.

I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.

It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"

Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear (I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.

Brother, you are making a lot of sense in this thread. I worry that, because the apostolic church is so full of how things look, I will be told that there's no way this could be from God (been there, done that, dealt with it for several years). I don't fit the mold that men have created in the apostolic church. Honestly, I think that's part of what makes me effective when preaching to and talking to these men in prisons. They can relate to me because I look just like they do and can talk Jesus to them using their language. They don't see that wall society creates between how "bad" they are perceived to be and how "good" Christians are perceived to be in me. I am someone like them.

The difference is I have been changed by the power of God and I let them know they can be changed by the power of God too. I don't put pressure on them to look any different than they do now. I always told the men to take their preconceived notions of what a Christian is supposed to be and chuck them out the window, in favor of letting God mold them into what He wants them to be. I used to tell the men that the world looks at them and sees murderers, thieves, con men, and liars. But God looks at them and sees evangelists, teachers, preachers, witnesses; vessels fit for Him to use. I preached a message of hope, free from religious chains and mindsets.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Pro 11:14

"Where NO counsel is, the people FALL: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety."

Pro 15:22

"Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are ESTABLISHED."

Pro 24:6

"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."

I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.

You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.

You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!

That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.

Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.

We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.

Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.

When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.

I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.

Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.

The Lord love your heart.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Brother, I appreciate your advice. I was hoping to hear from a couple of you evangelist types cause much of your time is spent alone. I want you to know that I am not taking any of this lightly. I know better than to play around with things pertaining to ministry of any kind. In fact, I went for a time without even being willing to play my guitar in a church because of where my head was at the time. Believe me when I tell you that I am not in any rush to fail or find myself in trouble with the Lord. I am using this time as a time of preparation for when He opens that door. I know He's going to open it; I just don't know how or when.