Emma Bontrager Tributes

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I don't think it is encouraged at all. I'm sure it's actually discouraged. I'm talking about the practice of rumspringa as a tradition. It just seems strange to leave the door open at a certain age. Let's not even bring drugs etc. into it. Leaving the door open to have a cell phone if it's wrong just seems contradictory. It's just a strange practice.

OK then...

I totally understand why they should have a few more liberties at a certain age, and no doubt will give my own children more liberties as they mature.

It should also be known the age for Rumspringa varies as well. 16 for some, 17 or 18 for other families.

Let's say I want my child to attend a Christian Bible School but they insist on a Liberal Arts College - they may get their way at that age.

Or lets say they are choosing to dress less conservatively than my wife and I do, again they may win.

No one is "leaving the door open" it is just basicly an acknowledgement that they have the power and legal right to move out, so a little tolerance is prefered over dumping ones child to the raving world. They still have some oversight from mom and dad in a very delicate time of life.

Among the Amish, burning bridges and cutting them off is saved for later... LOL! ...after they commit to the church and then want to leave!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

OK then...

I totally understand why they should have a few more liberties at a certain age, and no doubt will give my own children more liberties as they mature.

It should also be known the age for Rumspringa varies as well. 16 for some, 17 or 18 for other families.

Let's say I want my child to attend a Christian Bible School but they insist on a Liberal Arts College - they may get their way at that age.

Or lets say they are choosing to dress less conservatively than my wife and I do, again they may win.

No one is "leaving the door open" it is just basicly an acknowledgement that they have the power and legal right to move out, so a little tolerance is prefered over dumping ones child to the raving world. They still have some oversight from mom and dad in a very delicate time of life.

Among the Amish, burning bridges and cutting them off is saved for later... LOL! ...after they commit to the church and then want to leave!

I think the difference is that it isn't so much a parental choice as it is a church tradition. I don't see it as the same as joinging the youth group because the kids know that they are going to have a lot more liberty just because they turn a certain age because this is what is practiced. They know that if they want to have a cell phone or drive a car at this age that it will be tolerated. In the UPC for example, the youth are not going to wear pants, watch TV, and try certain worldly things simply because they are in the youth group. The youth group has youth leadership that teaches the kids not to do these things. If they do it, they are doing it against church teachings. The difference in rumspringa is the wide agreement to basically turn a blind eye during this period as an agreed upon church tradition. I am not saying the church condones what they are doing.....I am saying the church condones the tradition itself. I am not talking about drugs and sex here. I am talking about breaking the ordnung. Do you see the difference between a tolerating but grieved parent putting up with a wayward teen and a church tradition that says "Well, kids will do these things".

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think the difference is that it isn't so much a parental choice as it is a church tradition. I don't see it as the same as joinging the youth group because the kids know that they are going to have a lot more liberty just because they turn a certain age because this is what is practiced. They know that if they want to have a cell phone or drive a car at this age that it will be tolerated. In the UPC for example, the youth are not going to wear pants, watch TV, and try certain worldly things simply because they are in the youth group. The youth group has youth leadership that teaches the kids not to do these things. If they do it, they are doing it against church teachings. The difference in rumspringa is the wide agreement to basically turn a blind eye during this period as an agreed upon church tradition. I am not saying the church condones what they are doing.....I am saying the church condones the tradition itself. I am not talking about drugs and sex here. I am talking about breaking the ordnung. Do you see the difference between a tolerating but grieved parent putting up with a wayward teen and a church tradition that says "Well, kids will do these things".

I believe most (not all) Amish fit your first description best.

I think we must agree to disagree.

It is strange that I find myself at odds here, considering I am an ex and have plenty of grievances with the plain people. I don't wish to be viewed as an apologist for Amish and Mennonites, but find myself being just that again and again. Why don't they pay taxes? Why does the Church allow the young people to sin? Why aren't Amish allowed to read the Bible? Are they Christian?

My only interest is accuracy, and of course, sharing what I experienced as an Old Order Mennonite.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I believe most (not all) Amish fit your first description best.

I think we must agree to disagree.

It is strange that I find myself at odds here, considering I am an ex and have plenty of grievances with the plain people. I don't wish to be viewed as an apologist for Amish and Mennonites, but find myself being just that again and again. Why don't they pay taxes? Why does the Church allow the young people to sin? Why aren't Amish allowed to read the Bible? Are they Christian?

My only interest is accuracy, and of course, sharing what I experienced as an Old Order Mennonite.

Yes, I think we will have to agree to disagree here, but not so much because I think we see it differently. I think we see it very much the same but are looking at it from two different directions. I am getting the feeling that you think that I think the Amish church allows it's young to sin. I don't see it that way but explaining what I am seeing is hard to convey, apparently. I know Amish parents grieve when their young stray and sin. I know they do not say "Oh well! Hope they join the church soon!" But on the flip side, most average churches do not have a named tradition that has become somewhat of an open door (which is undoubtably not how the tradition started out). In most churches joining the youth group does not have the same context.