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Old 12-16-2007, 04:10 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind View Post
I guess I am the one missing something here.

This is not 1913, and I personally don't consider Trinitarians to be saved.
Were Trinitarians saved in 1912?

The fervent "Water & Spirit" argument has no application in the real world. IMHO.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:39 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
The fervent "Water & Spirit" argument has no application in the real world. IMHO.
What do you mean by no application in the real world?
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:06 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
What do you mean by no application in the real world?
For 1,813 years no one was saved in the "real world."

If the principles of salavation didn't apply then, why should we assume that they apply now?
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:11 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
For 1,813 years no one was saved in the "real world."

If the principles of salavation didn't apply then, why should we assume that they apply now?
You cannot say without a doubt that no one obeyed Acts 2:38 for 1813 years. You cannot prove it either way. Neither can I.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
You cannot say without a doubt that no one obeyed Acts 2:38 for 1813 years. You cannot prove it either way. Neither can I.
I can't say without a doubt that there's NOT a zebra in my coat pocket hanging by the door. But I am reasonably certain that there isn't. I can't prove to you right now that I won't be struck by lightening before finishing this post, but I'll keep going any way.

Why go to work tomorrow? You can't even prove that you'll make it there alive. Why take the risk on the highway? Why get a flu shot? People die every year from a flu shot and yet good doctors keep recommending them. Why not ride the flying unicorn that just might appear in your yard tomorrow? You can't prove that one won't. If one doesn't what about the next day, or the next? Does it make sense to keep waiting for the flying unicorn just because you can't prove that he won't ever show up?

Why not spend the mortgage money on lottery tickets? You can't prove that you won't win, but you CAN prove that your odds will be greater than if you only spent a dollar. The only certainty is you will never win if you never play. Take out a loan, max your credit cards, skip all of your bills and buy lottery tickets, no one can prove that you won't win! But is this a reasonable financial plan? Of course not.

In those 1,813 years of church history we have records of literally 1,000's of different beliefs. One belief that is missing is the "Water & Spirit" teaching of modern OP's. Maybe some illiterate Amazonian tribe from the 1200's held that belief. Maybe a sailor was shipwrecked on the Antarctic ice shelf during the 1500's and had the revelation shortly before he froze to death.

We do know that nobody in Christendom reported this belief from the time of the closing of the NT until Arroy Seco. Nobody. And we do know that the "evidenced by speaking in other tongues" teaching was the fervent work of a single man, Charles Fox Parham. A man whose reputation and other teachings caused OP's to expel him from their reporting until the late 1930's. The whole Topeka event with Agnes Ozman and all was lost for decades in the 20th century.

And the history of OP's is full of such "edits." At one time all UPC ministers were required to read PCI literature. That requirement was removed without comment or discussion. Entire books like the Pentecostal Home Study Guide were rewritten to hide this fact.

Several false histories of the church were invented with fictional accounts of OP's in history. Marvin Arnold and the books Ancient Champions of Oneness and After the Way Called Heresy contained embarrassing fabrications.

So, since we do know that Pentecostals in general, and OP's in particular, have been hiding their true history while fabricating a false one, how should I interpret the "hidden record" of Oneness Pentecostals. With this kind of a track record for deceit, why should we take anyone's word without first getting some evidence to back it up?

No, I haven't asked every soul that lived, but it is reasonable to conclude that OP's did not exist during those 1,813 years. In fact, you're more likely to win the lottery than to find an OP organization existing during that time period. And I don't recommend buying lottery tickets.
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