What Constitutes Discipleship?

[Aquila]

I’ve attended a church with more than 1,000 in attendance, a church with more than 500 in attendance, and I’m currently attending a church pushing about 190 in attendance. When it came to discipleship I’ve personally experienced that the larger the church the greater the lack of personalized ministry and discipleship. One can attend most mega-churches without being noticed…they can also easily choose to leave large mega-churches without being noticed. Programs are “structured” and are not based on relationship. There’s a lot of big bang, big packaging, and big religion. It’s like being a member of a spiritual Sam’s Club.

In the church with about 500 in attendance I found a similar experience. However things were really clicking when home fellowship groups were being used. There was a sense of community and fellowship that added to being in the larger meetings. But when they ended the home fellowship groups it became a big religious show. The music was real good, the preaching was excellent, but it felt like a theatrical performance. While in ministry there it felt like a big performance. There wasn’t a personal touch and nearly every sermon was very “generalized” so that it appealed to everyone present.

I’m in the smaller church now. Rarely over 200. You can’t slip in and not be noticed. Also you can’t slip out and not be noticed. One of the most endearing things I’ve seen was when the pastor read the prayer request list before the congregation and everyone prayed for every individual and their specific need. It wasn’t a “bless those on this list prayer”….it was a, “Father, please hear Bro. Jim’s prayer Lord, and heal his son…” The music isn’t as good nor is the preaching as “spit and polished”…but it’s real. Sometimes the pastor will stop and talk to a brother or sister about something actually taking place in their lives amidst his message and give them a “Word from the Lord”. It doesn’t take an army to put together an activity either. Get-togethers are quick and relatively painless. Everyone contributes and cleans. It’s really nice. I don’t see myself returning to a larger church any time in the future. We also meet together in our homes more often for food and fellowship. Discipling takes place as we share and pray in front of the fireplace in our living rooms.

When it comes to church life I think we should turn to the Bible. The Bible alone should be our standard rule of faith and practice. Here is how the early church structured their worship during times of acceptance and persecution for nearly 300 years:

Acts 2:1-2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Acts 2:46
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 8:3
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Acts 20:20
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

Romans. 16:3-5
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians. 16:19
19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Colossians. 4:15
15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

[Aquila]

It was the custom of the Apostles to establish and minister to churches gathered in individual homes. They didn’t work on adding members to a single church but rather they sought to establish church meetings in as many homes throughout Rome as possible. In this way anything with a roof was a potential place for the “church” to meet. (By the way, the term “church” has nothing to do with a building; the “church” is a people).

This was the way of the Apostles and the early church for nearly 3 centuries. Why didn’t any Apostle ever speak of building a church building? The concept was very common in Judaism because synagogues were spread throughout much of the region. Why is it that for nearly three hundred years no one wrote regarding establishing church assemblies in buildings? Polycarp, the disciple of John the Revelator even wrote concerning how he was educated in the ways of the Lord in an early Christian household.

Is it possible that the Apostles and early Christians understood something we do not? Having come from the Temple religion of Judaism they rejected the notions of religious houses of worship for the freedom and mobility of an evangelistic church meeting publicly in the markets and in homes. You’ll not find a single sermon preached in a church building in the book of Acts. Nor will you read of a pulpit, steeple, stained glass window, or bell tower in the New Testament. They understood their mission and it didn’t include elaborate religious buildings nor mega-churches. Christianity was a faith firmly grounded in home and family.

Christianity explodes when it is applied this way. It’s exploding in China and throughout the third world as Christians meet and establish assemblies in homes.
Paul himself spoke of how a church service was to be held in an early church assembly. Let’s look at it. I’ll embolden points of special interest:

I Corinthians 14:26-37
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The first point is that if anyone is addressing the congregation (two or more) in an unknown tongue he is to remain silent unless there is an interpreter present. The limit of those allowed to address the congregation in tongues is three.

The second point is in relation to preaching and teaching. We see here that up to two or three prophets (anointed preacher/teachers) were permitted to address a congregation. Those not speaking were to weigh what was being taught against Scripture. During the teaching if any listener had a question or an understanding to share, the prophet leading the lesson was to remain silent and allow that brother to speak. It was a very participatory meeting that allowed for discussion; it wasn’t a monologue-like sermon where no one speaks or prophesies but the designated preacher at the pulpit. In this way two or three elders guided the congregation in study but all (verse 31) were given an opportunity to prophesy under the guidance of the elders. In short, it was a group discussion governed by up to three facilitators (i.e. a home fellowship group).

Third point is that the women were admonished to remain silent and not interrupt the men who were teaching with questions. Instead they were to remain silent and ask their husbands at home. This blessing is two fold. First it places silent pressure on the men to open up and minister to one another. Second it places responsibility on every husband to lead his household in devotions and learning the Word of the Lord.

Fourth point I’d like to make about the text is that these are the “commandments of the Lord”. This is how we are “commanded” to have church. This is the process by which we build up and disciple one another in the Word and ways of God. One will find it increasingly difficult to have a church meeting that follows the pattern set by the Apostle Paul in a large church assembly.

It may also be important to note that their Lord’s Supper was an actual meal centered upon the breaking of bread (representing the body of Christ) and the partaking of wine (representing the blood of Christ). This was a very intimate and joyous time of eating and fellowship where discipleship also occurred. In today’s church culture the “Lord’s Supper” is more like a ceremonial “snack” in traditional Catholic fashion. One would be hard pressed to even hold a biblical “Lord’s Supper” in a very large Church assembly. It was the Catholics that reduced the Love Feast to this anemic ceremony we hold today. Why? Because they were the first to begin gathering larger and larger crowds of people for indoctrination and feeding a full meal to them all was impractical.

Every time we read of a church in the New Testament we should see it as an assembly in a home or as the sum total of Christian homes in a given city. That is the context. Most actually imagine a church gathered in a church building with a pastor reading Paul’s letter to those in the pews! No, the letters were written to smaller bodies gathered in homes and circulated from house to house.

It’s evident that the Apostolic pattern for the assembling is the house church. This is where the preaching (prophesying), teaching, and discipleship took place. It was impersonal and wasn’t a program. It was a way of living one’s faith from day to day.

Discipleship was a form of spiritual mentoring through day to day living. Just some food for thought.

[Sister Alvear]

we have lots of housemeetings in Brazil...

[Sister Alvear]

Many places in our world can only meet in houses...

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Felicity

But Rhonda....

The Word is taught in church and in most churches, both large and small (but probably more available in the larger churches) there are often courses and programs in place to meet the needs of new believers, Sunday School for children, youth group for youth, etc. where the need for teaching and information is met.

Who here is advocating condemnation and religiosity? And who is advocating the idea that that will foster, aid or develop discipleship?

I think that my posts affirm what you are saying in your 2nd paragraph. We are taught through example of our leaders and other mentors/examples in the church as well as through teaching, preaching, etc.

What is your issue here?

What am I missing? LOL!

Felicity,

You aren't missing anything...I think we are on different pages...my idea of discipling is getting people to want what you have and finding it before entering the church doors.

My mother prayed those hundreds of people through to the Holy Ghost before they ever visited the church. Then when they began to visit the church with us...Mom still prayed with them, counseled with them in our home, and taught them the basics of Bible concepts that they didn't get right away at church.

So, I think that the only area we are seeing differently is that I get the impression you feel like they can get everything they need by attending church and I think it begins before that and disciplining is forming a long-lasting relationship that bonds them to the local assembly through relationship.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Many places in our world can only meet in houses...

Sister Alvear,

The house setting is more intimate and less threatening. People who won't come to church will come to your home.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Felicity,

You aren't missing anything...I think we are on different pages...my idea of discipling is getting people to want what you have and finding it before entering the church doors.

Oh! I would think that's normally known as evangelization. Discipling happens after people have become believers.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Many places in our world can only meet in houses...

We've had meetings in our home. In fact it's how we started the church in H.K. And we've led many people to the Lord in our home. I definitely see the value of it and most of the move of God that's taken place in China has happened in people's homes and courtyards.

I personally prefer corporate worship in the traditional Penetecostal church style but I can adapt to both when or if necessary.

[Michael The Disciple]

Can one be a Christian and not a disciple?

Jesus said who could not be his disciple.

25: And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Some one must be fully surrendered to Jesus or he cannot be his disciple.

Is a disciple something different than a Christian?

26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26

So it is clear that to Jesus a Christian and a disciple are the same thing.

Although I have long been part of the House Church movement that is neither here nor there about what constitutes a disciple.

A disciple is one who hates Father, Mother, Sisters, Brothers, Wife and Children, yea and his own life also when it comes to loyalty to Jesus Christ. To him there are no disciples who put anyone or thing above him. They are not Christians as to his definition of Christian.

The reason there is a problem with todays converts is the same as the reason with yesterdays converts. Generally speaking they have never even been given the terms of discipleship as taught by the Lord and Savior.

One does not become a Christian and then get discipled. If they are a Christian they are a disciple. Now once they become a disciple then they are to mature, growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus.

If they are not a disciple they are not a Christian.

[Sister Alvear]

It is hard to find people willing to be discipled...cross them and see how much they want to learn...