Is Acts 2:38 Really Supported by History?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Pel, you have done a great job of pointing out some of the falicies here.

I dont think too many will want to challenge you on the spicifics.

As Prax said and also Chris Hall said in the other tHread, I dont need some historic time line to be secure in the Apostolic message. If I were the first to believe this since the Apostles, I would still be secure in my being right!

I would like to see if we could actually find real evidence of post AD300 of people being Baptized in Jesus Name and also (but not necessarly connected to) HGB.

there may be little historical evidence of people being baptized either way before that date or after. What we have is people saying how TO baptize people and for that we might find both before that date such as the Didache which has echoes of both "formulas" I think. And I do agree though that there probably were some documents favorable to our view point that did not survive history for whatever reason, including the victors "burning" them...but it's irrelevent

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

there may be little historical evidence of people being baptized either way before that date or after. What we have is people saying how TO baptize people and for that we might find both before that date such as the Didache which has echoes of both "formulas" I think. And I do agree though that there probably were some documents favorable to our view point that did not survive history for whatever reason, including the victors "burning" them...but it's irrelevent

Often the burning of a "heretic's" writings was symbolic and not intended to destroy all evidence of the person's existence. Having the writings of those so condemned proved valuable in countering their claims.

The Vatican Library is a repository of a wealth of "heretical" material though to uncover more than just the standard fare requires credentialing by an accreditted university.

Still it's easier to comb those archives than it would be to get a look at Charles F. Parham's letters to Howard Goss which are kept in the vaults of an different "vatican" in Hazelwood.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Still it's easier to comb those archives than it would be to get a look at Charles F. Parham's letters to Howard Goss which are kept in the vaults of an different "vatican" in Hazelwood.

Have you tried?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Have you tried?

A more well known writer did and had access for a while before being shut out. I have gone through some unorganized archival material there back before the third floor was added. I'm sure that I wouldn't even recognize anything today.

The guy who "holds the keys" today kind of owes me a favor, but he would never admit it and he would certainly not allow the likes of me in there in the current climate of the UPC.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

A more well known writer did and had access for a while before being shut out. I have gone through some unorganized archival material there back before the third floor was added. I'm sure that I wouldn't even recognize anything today.

The guy who "holds the keys" today kind of owes me a favor, but he would never admit it and he would certainly not allow the likes of me in there in the current climate of the UPC.

What's so damaging that those papers have to be top secret, classified, highly confidential?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What's so damaging that those papers have to be top secret, classified, highly confidential?

That's unknown, though Thomas Fudge does cite one letter and an entry in Brother Goss's diary that seem to amount to a confession to some of the "morals" accusations against Parham.

It may be that there are statements about people still living, in which case it would be a standard procedure to leave some things tucked away until all concerned have passed. Our American government has done that with historical records in the past, though now they throw open anything salacious just for the "fun" of it.

However, a full explanation should always be given when records are kept shut. If nothing else, it stifles at least some of the inevitable conspiracy theories.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Often the burning of a "heretic's" writings was symbolic and not intended to destroy all evidence of the person's existence. Having the writings of those so condemned proved valuable in countering their claims.

The Vatican Library is a repository of a wealth of "heretical" material though to uncover more than just the standard fare requires credentialing by an accreditted university.

Still it's easier to comb those archives than it would be to get a look at Charles F. Parham's letters to Howard Goss which are kept in the vaults of an different "vatican" in Hazelwood.

I was gonna mention the vatican library, but so far nobody has said they contain Praxeas writing. I can assume, though I might be wrong, that given the prominence of Praxeas (enough for Tertullian to devote writing against him) that he must have written something. Maybe they just did not survive antiquity. However as it was said about the victor, often winning armies attempted to wipe out the culture of the conquored. Rome did this (The Roman Empire). Even muslims did it. They intermarried and forced their religion on others and got rid and out lawed the old. Russia did it to a degree. I WISH the Vatican would open up those archives...has to make you wonder

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I was gonna mention the vatican library, but so far nobody has said they contain Praxeas writing. I can assume, though I might be wrong, that given the prominence of Praxeas (enough for Tertullian to devote writing against him) that he must have written something. Maybe they just did not survive antiquity. However as it was said about the victor, often winning armies attempted to wipe out the culture of the conquored. Rome did this (The Roman Empire). Even muslims did it. They intermarried and forced their religion on others and got rid and out lawed the old. Russia did it to a degree. I WISH the Vatican would open up those archives...has to make you wonder

Ancient manuscripts of the time were written on vellum- calf or sheep skin. Even after curing, the manuscripts made an attractive meal for rats. Tischendorf famously rescued Codex Sinaiticus just before the monks at Saint Catherine's were about to burn it for kindling. There were a lot of things lost without a malicious intent. Ignorance, time, rodents and water have eaten up huge volumes of history.

I would have loved to have been in Baghdad when a lot of the mosques were being attacked. The walls of many of those places are stuffed with old worn out Korans. A lot of light on the development of the Koran and early Arab literature could be gleaned by a discrete and careful soldier.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Ancient manuscripts of the time were written on vellum- calf or sheep skin. Even after curing, the manuscripts made an attractive meal for rats. Tischendorf famously rescued Codex Sinaiticus just before the monks at Saint Catherine's were about to burn it for kindling. There were a lot of things lost without a malicious intent. Ignorance, time, rodents and water have eaten up huge volumes of history.

I would have loved to have been in Baghdad when a lot of the mosques were being attacked. The walls of many of those places are stuffed with old worn out Korans. A lot of light on the development of the Koran and early Arab literature could be gleaned by a discrete and careful soldier.

All true. BTW did you read the news article about an ancient Quran found in a mosque in Dubar or somewhere there that shows evidence of editing? Interesting read and very embarrassing for many muslims