Where are all the Acts 2:38 folks (3-steppers)??

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Your being sidetracked. The issue is baptism, is it a command and therefore necessary or was it an optional suggestion from Jesus.

I've often been met with this response so I would welcome any opportunity to improve my articulation.

One of the key points of disagreement about baptism is often summed up in the debate about how "eis" (translated as "for" in KJV) is to be understood in Acts 2:38. Do we "obey the command" to be baptized in order that our sins may be remitted, or do we "follow the instructions because our sins have already been remitted" and thus we are baptized (in a manner of speaking) as Jesus was: "to fulfill all righteousness?"

My working hypothesis is "yes" to both. And I'm not just trying to get two sides to agree either. But underlying this debate is a fundamental paradox that our human abilities will always struggle to grasp. I feel that both sides are correct. but also that both sides are wrong when they leave out "the other side of the coin."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I've often been met with this response so I would welcome any opportunity to improve my articulation.

One of the key points of disagreement about baptism is often summed up in the debate about how "eis" (translated as "for" in KJV) is to be understood in Acts 2:38. Do we "obey the command" to be baptized in order that our sins may be remitted, or do we "follow the instructions because our sins have already been remitted" and thus we are baptized (in a manner of speaking) as Jesus was: "to fulfill all righteousness?"

My working hypothesis is "yes" to both. And I'm not just trying to get two sides to agree either. But underlying this debate is a fundamental paradox that our human abilities will always struggle to grasp. I feel that both sides are correct. but also that both sides are wrong when they leave out "the other side of the coin."

This question avoids the point. Jesus taught that his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness, indicating that baptism was a command. Jesus also commanded that the church baptize converts in the Great Commission. We see Peter preaching to those in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost and in his sermon he admonished them to obey and be baptized after repentance. Peter also commanded that the gentiles be water baptized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10.

You're wanting to dance with Acts 2:38 while ignoring the whole of Scripture in regards to water baptism.

Again I ask; is water baptism a command of Scripture? Yes or no?

This is an important question because if we can conclude that it is a command, failure to baptize or be baptized is rebellion against the Scriptures.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by Aquila

This question avoids the point. Jesus taught that his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness, indicating that baptism was a command. Jesus also commanded that the church baptize converts in the Great Commission. We see Peter preaching to those in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost and in his sermon he admonished them to obey and be baptized after repentance. Peter also commanded that the gentiles be water baptized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10.

You're wanting to dance with Acts 2:38 while ignoring the whole of Scripture in regards to water baptism.

Again I ask; is water baptism a command of Scripture? Yes or no?

This is an important question because if we can conclude that it is a command, failure to baptize or be baptized is rebellion against the Scriptures.

And, here is a counter question? If a soul is physically unable to be baptized, if God's grace annulled because they cannot physically be baptized? I thought salvation was by grace through faith and NOT of works? Is God's grace limited when man cannot fulfill a works requirement for salvation?

So, is God unrighteous?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

And, here is a counter question? If a soul is physically unable to be baptized, if God's grace annulled because they cannot physically be baptized? I thought salvation was by grace through faith and NOT of works? Is God's grace limited when man cannot fulfill a works requirement for salvation?

So, is God unrighteous?

To me this gets into how one believes baptism can be performed, you know the old "it has to be running water, not in a tub"

I believe it is that very Grace and Faith that saves, as far as I'm concerned if you can not physically be baptized by immersion then yes a shower will do....lol....If you have the faith that the baptisim is for the remission of sins through the cross.

As for the next question coming, NO, I don't think that means that everyone can be baptized how ever they want to through faith,,,,Why??? Because I don't think God is sitting up there nit picking through mans imature thoughts of " well he did it why can't I"


( hey Bro. , are you kinfolk with any Prices out of Indiana or Arkansas?)

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by scotty

To me this gets into how one believes baptism can be performed, you know the old "it has to be running water, not in a tub"

I believe it is that very Grace and Faith that saves, as far as I'm concerned if you can not physically be baptized by immersion then yes a shower will do....lol....If you have the faith that the baptisim is for the remission of sins through the cross.

As for the next question coming, NO, I don't think that means that everyone can be baptized how ever they want to through faith,,,,Why??? Because I don't think God is sitting up there nit picking through mans imature thoughts of " well he did it why can't I"


( hey Bro. , are you kinfolk with any Prices out of Indiana or Arkansas?)

Since we were (sort of) quarrling before, I did want to add that I am impressed by your responses here Scotty.

I've got to get ready for an afternoon service in a couple of hours, so I will bail for now... but Lord willing, I'll be back later tonight. God bless everyone!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Since we were (sort of) quarrling before, I did want to add that I am impressed by your responses here Scotty.

I've got to get ready for an afternoon service in a couple of hours, so I will bail for now... but Lord willing, I'll be back later tonight. God bless everyone!

I invite you to go to my Java shop link below, I posted what my beliefs are today and where I stand since there seems to be confusion amoung some and others just point blank have asked. I am sure they are not mainstream but, I don't believe Christ and the diciples were either.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

And, here is a counter question? If a soul is physically unable to be baptized, if God's grace annulled because they cannot physically be baptized? I thought salvation was by grace through faith and NOT of works? Is God's grace limited when man cannot fulfill a works requirement for salvation?

So, is God unrighteous?

There was a man in the Bible who could not walk. His friends took him on his bed and opened up the roof of the house where Jesus was teaching and lowered him into the room for Jesus to heal him and he was healed and forgiven. This man found a way to get to Jesus. If someone wants to be baptized, they will find a way.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

There was a man in the Bible who could not walk. His friends took him on his bed and opened up the roof of the house where Jesus was teaching and lowered him into the room for Jesus to heal him and he was healed and forgiven. This man found a way to get to Jesus. If someone wants to be baptized, they will find a way.

Mizpeh, so a man who cannot even be touched because of the pain, God will send him to an eternal Hell because of his sickness? Sorry dude, but God is not as horrible as some make Him out to be.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

There was a man in the Bible who could not walk. His friends took him on his bed and opened up the roof of the house where Jesus was teaching and lowered him into the room for Jesus to heal him and he was healed and forgiven. This man found a way to get to Jesus. If someone wants to be baptized, they will find a way.

I invite you to visit the hospital in a situation like the one that Bother Price describes and try to "open" up anything. Sadly, you would go from hospital ministry to a jail ministry as quickly as the paddy wagon can take you.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

There was a man in the Bible who could not walk. His friends took him on his bed and opened up the roof of the house where Jesus was teaching and lowered him into the room for Jesus to heal him and he was healed and forgiven. This man found a way to get to Jesus. If someone wants to be baptized, they will find a way.

I remember when an old man was transported to church in an ambulance, taken to the front on a gurney, and then lowered into the water by the ambulance attendants. I don't remember much else about that like who he was and if he was related to someone in the church or what. I heard of some folks who baptized their adult son in a whirlpool bath in a hospital before he died. I've also heard of folks being baptized in their beds in nursing homes by having a little water poured or sprinkled on them.