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  #731  
Old 12-30-2007, 10:19 PM
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RevDWW RevDWW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Ephesians referes to the water of the Word ....

Titus the regeneration and washing of the Holy Spirit ...

neither verse speaks of water baptism ...

it's just another case of verbal, logical and theological gymnastics needed to explain how every puddle in Scripture must equate to water baptism ...

Hmmm ... must we accept this stretch or should we harmonize the Ephesians and Titus verses w/ the biblical principle that our born again experience, which includes our sanctification and regeneration is from above .... Spirit driven.
Some are so frightened of water in the Word, I have to wonder if they have the hydrophobia, sometimes also known as rabies.
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

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  #732  
Old 12-30-2007, 10:19 PM
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What do the "1 steppers" say about this?

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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  #733  
Old 12-30-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Ephesians referes to the water of the Word ....

Titus the regeneration and washing of the Holy Spirit ...

neither verse speaks of water baptism ...

it's just another case of verbal, logical and theological gymnastics needed to explain how every puddle in Scripture must equate to water baptism ...

Hmmm ... must we accept this stretch or should we harmonize the Ephesians and Titus verses w/ the biblical principle that our born again experience, which includes our sanctification and regeneration is from above .... Spirit driven.
Quote:
Title: Commentary on the Epistle to the Ephesians
Edition: First
Copyright: Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2003, QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.
Author: Hodge, Charles
Publisher: QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.
Publisher Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Permission to Quote:

With regard to the next clause, καθαρίσας τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος, having cleansed (or cleansing) it with the washing of water, we must inquire—

1. What is intended by λουτρὸν τοῦ ὕδατος.

2. What is meant by καθαρίσας; and

3. In what relation this clause stands to the preceding. Does “the washing of water” here mean baptism, or a washing which is analogous to a washing with water? The latter interpretation is admissible.

The apostle may mean nothing more than a spiritual frustration. In Ezekiel 16:9, speaking of Israel, God said, “Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.” And in 36:25, “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean.” Also in Hebrews 10:22, it is said, “Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” In all these cases washing with water is a figurative expression for spiritual purification. Commentators, however, almost without exception understand the expression in the text to refer to baptism. The great majority of them, with Calvin and other of the Reformers, do not even discuss the question, or seem to admit any other interpretation to be possible. The same view is taken by all the modern exegetical writers. This unanimity of opinion is itself almost decisive. Nothing short of a stringent necessity can justify any one in setting forth an interpretation opposed to this common consent of Christians. No such necessity here exists. Baptism is a washing with water. It was the washing with water with which Paul’s readers as Christians were familiar, and which could not fail to occur to them as the washing intended. Besides, nothing more is here attributed to baptism than is attributed to it in many other passages of the word of God. Compare particularly Acts 22:16, “Arise, be baptized, and wash away thy sins, ἀπόλουσαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου.” There can be little doubt, therefore, that by “the washing with water,” the apostle meant baptism.
Quote:
Title: Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the New Testament
Edition: First
Copyright: Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2000, Findex.com, Inc.
Author: Henry, Matthew
Publisher: Parsons Church Group, A Division of Findex.com, Inc.
Publisher Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Permission to Quote:
That he might sanctify and cleanse it, with the washing of water by the word (v. 26)—that he might endue all his members with a principle of holiness, and deliver them from the guilt, the pollution, and the dominion of sin. The instrumental means whereby this is affected are the instituted sacraments, particularly the washing of baptism and the preaching and reception of the gospel.
Quote:
Title: Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the New Testament
Edition: First
Copyright: Electronic STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Author: Clarke, Adam
Publisher: Parsons Technology, Inc.
Publisher Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Permission to Quote: All rights reserved.
With the washing of water—Baptism, accompanied by the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Title: Jamieson-Faussett-Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible
Edition: First
Copyright: Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2003, QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.
Author: Jamieson, Robert, A.R. Faussett, David Brown
Publisher: QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.
Publisher Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Permission to Quote:

Verse 26. sanctify—that is, consecrate her to God. Compare John 17:19, meaning, “I devote Myself as a holy sacrifice, that My disciples also may be devoted or consecrated as holy in (through) the truth” [Neander] (Hebrews 2:11; 10:10; 13:12 see on Hebrews 10:10).

and cleanse—rather, as Greek, “cleansing,” without the “and.”

with the washing of water—rather as Greek, “with,” or “by the laver of the water,” namely, the baptismal water. So it ought to be translated in Titus 3:5, the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs. As the bride passed through a purifying bath before marriage, so the Church (compare Revelation 21:2). He speaks of baptism according to its high ideal and design, as if the inward grace accompanied the outward rite; hence he asserts of outward baptism whatever is involved in a believing appropriation of the divine truths it symbolizes, and says that Christ, by baptism, has purified the Church [Neander] (1 Peter 3:21).
I suppose these folks are making cases of verbal, logical and theological gymnastics to explain this verse.............
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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  #734  
Old 12-30-2007, 11:03 PM
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The last 2 of your commentaries offer baptism as as possible interpretation ... while leaving the door open to other interpretation ...

The first ... gives the view of a baptismal regenerationist speaking almost as if he can read the minds of all theologians ... who by the way to differ in this interpretation ...

The second simply states baptism ... no reference to water or Spirit baptism.

Your appeal to authority is fallacious ... and if you would like to exegete this verses in context and explain how both verse must be referring to water baptism in context w/o jumping to conclusions ... just w/ the passage itself you will realize you have little to work with.

Using commentaries for convenient extrapolation is always fun ....

H.W. look up Trinity on these same commentaries tell me what you get.
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  #735  
Old 12-30-2007, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
This in one funny and, IMO, inconsistent thread ...

PM me and I'll tell who was the funniest.

Pelathais ... you were the least FUNNY.
Dan welcome back. Bro we missed you!

Nathan
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  #736  
Old 12-30-2007, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
The last 2 of your commentaries offer baptism as as possible interpretation ... while leaving the door open to other interpretation ...

The first ... gives the view of a baptismal regenerationist speaking almost as if he can read the minds of all theologians ... who by the way to differ in this interpretation ...

The second simply states baptism ... no reference to water or Spirit baptism.

Your appeal to authority is fallacious ... and if you would like to exegete this verses in context and explain how both verse must be referring to water baptism in context w/o jumping to conclusions ... just w/ the passage itself you will realize you have little to work with.

Using commentaries for convenient extrapolation is always fun ....

H.W. look up Trinity on these same commentaries tell me what you get.
Don't need them to understand the simple truth that water baptism is needed to fulfill the answer to the question "what must we do". Just wanted to see if you'd say the commentators were being overly logical and so forth.

You might want to see a physician for that bad case of rabies you seem to be nursing........
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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  #737  
Old 12-30-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
Here is my contribution to the ongoing attempt to "convert" all of us to the Universal Salvation doctrine.

Blah, blah, blah.

Buyer beware.
Who needs to convert anyone. If anything It might help you in your ministry to understand the "real" grace of God.

Peter and Paul, always took their converts for a visit and visualization of the Christ who was crucified.

Here is how I see my experiences in the UPCI and most Oneness Acts 2:39 churches.

They do not spend time explaining the finished work of Calvary and how the death on the cross started the Death-Burial-resurrection.

All I ever heard was the pastor, evangelist and conference speakers doing was shouting acts 2:38, the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus and how we need to come out from among them and be seperate.

Speaking of dress...

One of the greatest sermons, that my dad ever preached and I remember not knowing really why.

As a young boy I weeped for hours that night in my bed.

The title of his Sermon, "Hero of the Ages" A complete medical breakdown of what a person goes through physically while being crucified.

What amazes me about those who want to talk plan of salvation and Acts 2:38.

Why do you run from talking about Grace as it relates to the cross.

You prove to me when you drop back to Acts 2:38 as you general answer.

You need to understand what Christ did for you on the cross.

That is why we are instructed to pick up our own cross daily.

Acts 2:28 without the cross is a dead formula...

Let's hear one of you add a clear understanding to us on what the cross is and not just represents the first part of Acts 2:38.

We do not attempt to take away from Acts 2:38.

We want to lead people to the fullness of the life through Acts 2:38.

After first giving them a real experience at the foot of the Cross.

I Cor 1:18 for the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the Power of God!

Power of God.

You might think the power of God as outpoured in Acts 2?

No the preaching of the cross is the power of God unto salvation.

The power that pricked the hearts of those in Acts Chapter 2 was not the speaking in Tongues.

It says these men doubted.

When Peter started talking about the Cross Acts 2:23 he preahed a great Sermon on the Crucifixion.

If you want real revival in your church always preach the Cross at your alter calls.

It is the power of God unto salvation...

Do you realize that when you sin willfully after receiving the promise. You crucify afresh the son of God.

You do not sin against your vow of Acts 2:38.

It is the death on the cross, He was crucifed before the foundations of the world were laid.

I could go on and on.....

I have been to the water and been baptized and have spoken in tongues....

Upon committing sin after going through Acts 2:38 why do we visit on the first part of the verse to receive continued forgiveness?

We do not revisit parts 2 and 3.

Though we do visit part 3 ofter for refreshing.

We never visit part 2 going forward.

The grace factor is found in your belief in the saving Grace on Calvary.

The Holy Spirit is a Gift.

More emphasis needs to be placed on Repentance which should be a daily thing in our christian walk.

No we build organizations, we outcast members, we throw away ministers, we pump out baptisms, we disciple few on the Grace factor, we instruct immediately on how to dress?

We are an outreach ministry for the local AOG and other Pentecostal churches....

Why because we do not have strong teaching on The Cross or Repentance....

Billy Graham though he falls short of the the message in Acts 2:38.

He did more in our life times to convert folks towards God.

Why he gave a simple clear message of the Cross of Jesus Christ..

From there God will lead men to a higher calling...


Nathan Eckstadt
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  #738  
Old 12-31-2007, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckstadt View Post
Who needs to convert anyone. If anything It might help you in your ministry to understand the "real" grace of God.

Peter and Paul, always took their converts for a visit and visualization of the Christ who was crucified.

Here is how I see my experiences in the UPCI and most Oneness Acts 2:39 churches.

They do not spend time explaining the finished work of Calvary and how the death on the cross started the Death-Burial-resurrection.

All I ever heard was the pastor, evangelist and conference speakers doing was shouting acts 2:38, the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus and how we need to come out from among them and be seperate.

Speaking of dress...

One of the greatest sermons, that my dad ever preached and I remember not knowing really why.

As a young boy I weeped for hours that night in my bed.

The title of his Sermon, "Hero of the Ages" A complete medical breakdown of what a person goes through physically while being crucified.

What amazes me about those who want to talk plan of salvation and Acts 2:38.

Why do you run from talking about Grace as it relates to the cross.

You prove to me when you drop back to Acts 2:38 as you general answer.

You need to understand what Christ did for you on the cross.

That is why we are instructed to pick up our own cross daily.

Acts 2:28 without the cross is a dead formula...

Let's hear one of you add a clear understanding to us on what the cross is and not just represents the first part of Acts 2:38.

We do not attempt to take away from Acts 2:38.

We want to lead people to the fullness of the life through Acts 2:38.

After first giving them a real experience at the foot of the Cross.

I Cor 1:18 for the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the Power of God!

Power of God.

You might think the power of God as outpoured in Acts 2?

No the preaching of the cross is the power of God unto salvation.

The power that pricked the hearts of those in Acts Chapter 2 was not the speaking in Tongues.

It says these men doubted.

When Peter started talking about the Cross Acts 2:23 he preahed a great Sermon on the Crucifixion.

If you want real revival in your church always preach the Cross at your alter calls.

It is the power of God unto salvation...

Do you realize that when you sin willfully after receiving the promise. You crucify afresh the son of God.

You do not sin against your vow of Acts 2:38.

It is the death on the cross, He was crucifed before the foundations of the world were laid.

I could go on and on.....

I have been to the water and been baptized and have spoken in tongues....

Upon committing sin after going through Acts 2:38 why do we visit on the first part of the verse to receive continued forgiveness?

We do not revisit parts 2 and 3.

Though we do visit part 3 ofter for refreshing.

We never visit part 2 going forward.

The grace factor is found in your belief in the saving Grace on Calvary.

The Holy Spirit is a Gift.

More emphasis needs to be placed on Repentance which should be a daily thing in our christian walk.

No we build organizations, we outcast members, we throw away ministers, we pump out baptism and keep a few?

Why because we do not have strong teaching on The Cross or Repentance....

Nathan Eckstadt
Wow Neck, that's quite an accusation you bring against PP. He doesn't understand the "real" grace of God?
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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  #739  
Old 12-31-2007, 12:07 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Wow Neck, that's quite an accusation you bring against PP. He doesn't understand the "real" grace of God?
Is this the same PP that has lumped one steppers w/ Carlton Pearson's Universal Salvation doctrine???
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  #740  
Old 12-31-2007, 12:14 AM
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Neck Neck is offline
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Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Wow Neck, that's quite an accusation you bring against PP. He doesn't understand the "real" grace of God?
If you are afraid in your message to bring a sinner to the need to repent at the foot of the Cross.

And you preach Acts 2:38 without the power of the Cross.

If you think the Power unto Salvation is in a mystical breath of uttering the words of Acts 2:38 you fail the Cross of Calvary.

Read verse 21 of Acts chapter 2.

Follow the entire chapter 2 of Acts it gives the blueprint for bringing a non beliver to the fullness of Salvation.

You do not start at Acts 2:38 and work backwards..

It is at the end of the salvation passage.

It ends with this promise is unto you and.....

Until I hear PP or anyone else talking about Acts 2:38 as a message of strict Obedience.

With not wanting to talk about the Grace of God or explaining clearly to me when it is applied in salvation.

I have to wonder....
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