Agenda Driven or Accepting of Diversity?

[Sherri]

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

Sherri,

You really hit the whole crux of the matter here. The libs can accept the cons as brothers, usually because of their "one step" theology and view of grace. The cons can't accept the libs the same way due to their staunch views which, in their view, cannot be compromised. To many, a compromise of "their" staunch con stand is "anathema, intolerable, and almost devilish. They cannot and will not accept the stance of a lib, because deep down inside they don't even think he or she is still saved.

So it is NOT just a matter of differences....at least not to most of the cons, it is a matter of salvation. Decades ago, that was not the case. Sadly, it is today. Having been on both sides myself, I have a much more clear understanding than someone who has not.

The bottom line issue is not insignificant things. The bottom line issue is salvation itself. That's why there are so many fireworks here on this forum.

And I can tell you who will "win." It will be the cons, because the libs have far more important things to do than to continually fuss about it.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

The bottom line issue is not insignificant things. The bottom line issue is salvation itself.

This sums it up.

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

The bottom line issue is not insignificant things. The bottom line issue is salvation itself.

You are right that the bottom line issue is salvation. When one believe that you can be saved without being baptized in Jesus name and being filled with the Holy Ghost then we don't see the bottom line the same. Our doctrine is not the same. I have a major problem with that.

Originally Posted by Sherri

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

Man... these posts are just incredible.

For the record, Sherri, if they only met you (like I have) they would see you in a whole different light. I loved your spirit from the minute I met you... and NOT because your brother is my best friend.

Hey, there were a bunch of 'big wigs' there that night but I was much more comfortable laughing with you than I would have been listening to them!

[Raven]

Sister Sherri
Sad! But what you said is very true. Your post should give us all something to pray about for many days to come.
Raven

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Raven

Sister Sherri
Sad! But what you said is very true. Your post should give us all something to pray about for many days to come.
Raven

I understand Sherri's feelings and the emotions on how & why she feels about this topic, but she either fails to realize or did not mention the fact that many UPCers believe that the things she no longer teaches asre salvational. It is believed that she has turned her back on truth,her roots, and therefore rejecting the people that she is connected with.

Let's face it, it's all very emotional on all sides(understandably).

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

I haven't read this thread until just now. I thought that it was going to be about some social issue that always chaps me. But, it isn't

Having said that, I found this POST which is probably the wisest, most accurate and discerning post that I've read so far.

The realm of those accepted by God is so all inclusive that the shading of extreem light to extreem darkness fades away in such small increments that it cannot be known except by God Himself. (hope that makes sense)

I might consider myself to be in and walking in the brightest possible light, yet a recognized brother with whom we have fellowship is walking in a light that is so slightly dimmer than our own that none can tell the difference. This continues on to the next brother and the next and then the next until the light gradually fades into dusk like condition and finally the gross darkness.

Therefore, it is PRIDE that works among us that seems to cause us to think that the light that we have is just a cut, if not a very small cut above another group. The same PRIDE in them causes them to think the same. Hence, the body of Christ is not mystically divided but pride is deceiving...even causes us to doubt others to become suspicious.

Pride working on "true believers" is a terrible thing. The true believer, regardless who he may be is very dogmatic. True beleivers will follow anyone fanatically that strike their fancy. It is a personality trait among some to become dogmatic. Dogmatism together with PRIDE will cause one to become agenda driven. Thus, the fellowship of Christ is greatly reduced to "us four and no more." Worse yet, "Nobody is saved 'cept you and me but sometimes I worry about you."

I have had good fellowship with the rankest of all conservatives knowing all the while that I do not believe the same way he does. Those kind of men have a sweet spirit of Christ with whom I fellowship who does not make their agendas a matter of division. Also, I have had sweet fellowship with the rankest of libs under the same condition. I've also had the sweetest fellowship with an AOG preacher once...that is until he died. He knew what I was. We discussed it some. But there was no way that I could change him. He knew that he could not change me. So, we set it aside and fellowship with Christ.

Once he invited us over to eat one evening. As we all sat around the table, he asked me to ask the blessings on the food. I bowed my head to pray. But just then, I felt the little wheel in the middle of the big wheel turn over in my soul. I tried to stay straight and resume the prayer. Before I could fisnish, that little wheel turned over again. Then, it was all she wrote for about two hours. A spirit of prayer came upon us that was awesome.... We were swept away in prayer. We visited the heavenlies being lifted up above all the earth into glory.

Two hours later, we got up. The man's face was flushed. He said, "As you started to pray, I saw Jesus in a vision with his hands stretched out toward us. Surely, this AOG man and myself had great fellowship in the Spirit. The food was still on the table but cold and untouched. What happened to the women. Why! They had fellowship to. They went shopping and came back just as we were finishing our prayer. lol....

The dear man has now gone on to judgment. Oh, tears come to my eyes with longing to see this precious man once more.

Dogmatism and pride are the twin sisters of division. It ought not to be.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I haven't read this thread until just now. I thought that it was going to be about some social issue that always chaps me. But, it isn't

Having said that, I found this POST which is probably the wisest, most accurate and discerning post that I've read so far.

The realm of those accepted by God is so all inclusive that the shading of extreem light to extreem darkness fades away in such small increments that it cannot be known except by God Himself. (hope that makes sense)

I might consider myself to be in and walking in the brightest possible light, yet a recognized brother with whom we have fellowship is walking in a light that is so slightly dimmer than our own that none can tell the difference. This continues on to the next brother and the next and then the next until the light gradually fades into dusk like condition and finally the gross darkness.

Therefore, it is PRIDE that works among us that seems to cause us to think that the light that we have is just a cut, if not a very small cut above another group. The same PRIDE in them causes them to think the same. Hence, the body of Christ is not mystically divided but pride is deceiving...even causes us to doubt others to become suspicious.

Pride working on "true believers" is a terrible thing. The true believer, regardless who he may be is very dogmatic. True beleivers will follow anyone fanatically that strike their fancy. It is a personality trait among some to become dogmatic. Dogmatism together with PRIDE will cause one to become agenda driven. Thus, the fellowship of Christ is greatly reduced to "us four and no more." Worse yet, "Nobody is saved 'cept you and me but sometimes I worry about you."

I have had good fellowship with the rankest of all conservatives knowing all the while that I do not believe the same way he does. Those kind of men have a sweet spirit of Christ with whom I fellowship who does not make their agendas a matter of division. Also, I have had sweet fellowship with the rankest of libs under the same condition. I've also had the sweetest fellowship with an AOG preacher once...that is until he died. He knew what I was. We discussed it some. But there was no way that I could change him. He knew that he could not change me. So, we set it aside and fellowship with Christ.

Once he invited us over to eat one evening. As we all sat around the table, he asked me to ask the blessings on the food. I bowed my head to pray. But just then, I felt the little wheel in the middle of the big wheel turn over in my soul. I tried to stay straight and resume the prayer. Before I could fisnish, that little wheel turned over again. Then, it was all she wrote for about two hours. A spirit of prayer came upon us that was awesome.... We were swept away in prayer. We visited the heavenlies being lifted up above all the earth into glory.

Two hours later, we got up. The man's face was flushed. He said, "As you started to pray, I saw Jesus in a vision with his hands stretched out toward us. Surely, this AOG man and myself had great fellowship in the Spirit. The food was still on the table but cold and untouched. What happened to the women. Why! They had fellowship to. They went shopping and came back just as we were finishing our prayer. lol....

The dear man has now gone on to judgment. Oh, tears come to my eyes with longing to see this precious man once more.

Dogmatism and pride are the twin sisters of division. It ought not to be.

Apprehended,

I happen to agree with you, I believe you post is very insightful of what happens when believers in Jesus Christ fellowship in the areas of agreement.
Honest and open discussion of the areas of disagreement, all the while loving and worshiping together in the unity of the Spirit.

I am considered lib and heretic on this form by most, but I still fellowship with my family, and friends from our UPC days. I have friends that my wife and I "won" to the Lord that are still in the UPC and we fellowship and love them all. I do not have an agenda toward any of them, they are true believers, and they treat us the same. Do they think differently behind the scenes? Who knows? We have great fellowship anyway. JMO

Anyway, I loved your post, blessings to you.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Apprehended,

I happen to agree with you, I believe you post is very insightful of what happens when believers in Jesus Christ fellowship in the areas of agreement.
Honest and open discussion of the areas of disagreement, all the while loving and worshiping together in the unity of the Spirit.

I am considered lib and heretic on this form by most, but I still fellowship with my family, and friends from our UPC days. I have friends that my wife and I "won" to the Lord that are still in the UPC and we fellowship and love them all. I do not have an agenda toward any of them, they are true believers, and they treat us the same. Do they think differently behind the scenes? Who knows? We have great fellowship anyway. JMO

Anyway, I loved your post, blessings to you.

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.