I believe in once saved, always saved!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Since He was using hyperbole, yes Im a disciple according to Luke 14:26.

What's your point??

a

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

Hyperbole and analogy are two different things...so to call them both an analogy and a hyperbole is not warranted.

Anyway, what in the text gives you the idea that Paul is using hyperbole, other than the fact that you don't like a God that would hate, really hate, anybody??

Is Paul using hyperbole when he says that God loves Jacob??

Does God "love" Jacob without really "loving" him??

When does the hyperbole begin and end with you??

Maybe Paul is using hyperbole on both occasions...God doesn't really "hate" Esau and He doesn't really "love" Jacob. Maybe He's just indifferent to both of them, which means if you run Paul's argument to it's logical end, using hyperbole, God chooses based on His indifference which makes Him arbitrary. God has no purpose in election. Since now He's arbitrary, how can it be said that He hates evil?? Does He??

See my point??

a

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Hyperbole and analogy are two different things...so to call them both an analogy and a hyperbole is not warranted.

Anyway, what in the text gives you the idea that Paul is using hyperbole, other than the fact that you don't like a God that would hate, really hate, anybody??

Is Paul using hyperbole when he says that God loves Jacob??

Does God "love" Jacob without really "loving" him??

When does the hyperbole begin and end with you??

Maybe Paul is using hyperbole on both occasions...God doesn't really "hate" Esau and He doesn't really "love" Jacob. Maybe He's just indifferent to both of them, which means if you run Paul's argument to it's logical end, using hyperbole, God chooses based on His indifference which makes Him arbitrary. God has no purpose in election. Since now He's arbitrary, how can it be said that He hates evil?? Does He??

See my point??

a

Noticed you didn't touch my point, the comparison of the two scriptures. The hyperbole or analogy aside, the use of the word hate is a figure of speech.

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Noticed you didn't touch my point, the comparison of the two scriptures. The hyperbole or analogy aside, the use of the word hate is a figure of speech.

i don't just try to answer a question, I try to prove my answer (It drives me up the wall when some just make statements without ever intending to prove it). I regret that I didn't make myself clear to you but I just assumed that you would be able to see that I rejected your contention that Paul was using hyperbole. And if I disagreed with you then naturally Paul, I believe, was really saying God hated Esau.

So I don't see any reason for juxtaposing what Paul said and the verse you quoted.

Its irrelevant for a multitude of reasons.

I hope that is considered me touching your point.

Its invalid.

a

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by augustianian

i don't just try to answer a question, I try to prove my answer (It drives me up the wall when some just make statements without ever intending to prove it). I regret that I didn't make myself clear to you but I just assumed that you would be able to see that I rejected your contention that Paul was using hyperbole. And if I disagreed with you then naturally Paul, I believe, was really saying God hated Esau.

So I don't see any reason for juxtaposing what Paul said and the verse you quoted.

Its irrelevant for a multitude of reasons.

I hope that is considered me touching your point.

Its invalid.

I don't know if you don't get the point or if you just chose to continue ignoring the point.

I will try again, "if you can hate your immediate family members and still please God then the word hate does not mean what we general understand it to mean.

Likewise, God does not hate Esau in that manner either.

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I don't know if you don't get the point or if you just chose to continue ignoring the point.

I will try again, "if you can hate your immediate family members and still please God then the word hate does not mean what we general understand it to mean.

Likewise, God does not hate Esau in that manner either.

I get your point. I disagree with your point. I used a reductio ad absurdum argument to point out to you that your point concerning Romans 9 is invalid.

So I get your point, and I disagree with it, and I dealt with it. So you can't accuse me of ignorance nor ignoring you.

I actually believe that God loved Jacob....

well, in the same manner I believe that God hated Esau. Just as much as He loved Jacob He hated Esau so that His purpose in election might stand. (Romans 9:11-15). I have already said this in a previous reply.

You know Im a Calvinist...so why would you think I would agree with your point.

Disagreement doesn't indicate misunderstanding.

a

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

prove that both are analogies...God says "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" and you say hated does not really mean hate...well then loved does not mean loved...now you have a God of confusion. God did not lie. Jesus was using a hyperbole. He was not speaking about God. We know Jesus taught in sayings. He used parables. And looking at the other gospels and the same story in them we see the point is we need to love God more than family.

BTW CJ weren't you asked not to promote your Universalism doctrine anywhere other than the debate board?