CeCe Winans under fire for singing at Gay church

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

You know, this is just a dumb question if you think about it.

How do you reach the lost?

I know these people are lost.. but they don't think they are. And they aren't just your average sinner either. They call darkness light... it's a dangerous place.
There are thousands upon thousands of "Christians" who don't believe God would put anyone in hell.. and many more who don't think God would put someone in hell because of their feelings. Oprah sings this from the mountain tops...

This is a dangerous place for CeCe to walk.

[chosenbyone]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

I know these people are lost.. but they don't think they are. And they aren't just your average sinner either. They call darkness light... it's a dangerous place.
There are thousands upon thousands of "Christians" who don't believe God would put anyone in hell.. and many more who don't think God would put someone in hell because of their feelings. Oprah sings this from the mountain tops...

This is a dangerous place for CeCe to walk.

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation? There is no way that you or I could know why this door has been opened for her to go and sing. How could we make such a judgement call of the leading of the Lord?

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by chosenbyone

Would you agree that it would be worth CeCe to walk in a dangerous place if one could be saved from damnation?

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.

[chosenbyone]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.

First let me mention that I have appreciated your sincerity on this thread. I would agree that our society has been too leniant on sin, which only robbed people from experiencing true freedom in Christ Jesus. With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

The reason why there haven't been more homosexuals saved and delivered in our churches was because people have been unable or unwilling to rise above their own prejudices against them. We have countless examples of drunkards, drug addicts, thieves, prostitutes and so on that were delivered and restored because those sins didn't have the stigma associated with homosexuality.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by chosenbyone

With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

Nobody is saying we should not evangelize the homosexual community. This is NOT "the homosexual community"..this is church full of gays that believe they are christians and that God approves of gay sex. They know the scriptures....there is not gonna be an evangelistic message after her singing calling them to repent and come out of that lifestyle.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by chosenbyone

First let me mention that I have appreciated your sincerity on this thread. I would agree that our society has been too leniant on sin, which only robbed people from experiencing true freedom in Christ Jesus. With that said, I don't feel like we should be apprehensive with evangelizing the gay/lesbian community by showing them the love of Christ. A person would not be considered a bigot or labled intolerant if they approached the sinner with love and wisdom. What examples of grace could the homosexual be afforded when they have been shown disgust, hatred and fear?

The reason why there haven't been more homosexuals saved and delivered in our churches was because people have been unable or unwilling to rise above their own prejudices against them. We have countless examples of drunkards, drug addicts, thieves, prostitutes and so on that were delivered and restored because those sins didn't have the stigma associated with homosexuality.

Well said, chosenby one! Well said! The church I attend has seven men who have been saved from the homosexual lifestyles, they are all seven living in accountability to pastor or other elders. Pastor has just completed a book, which is their stories. God is great and still at work in His creation.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Indeed... I hope this happens. I won't say it can't but the liklihood is slim. These are not just any sinners. These are people who preach God accepts the sin... that it is not a sin at all.

We are living in a world where some sin has been widely accepted.. and because of this there are those of Christian "faith" who have been conditioned to believe the same as the world. We're all afraid of being called biggots or labled intolerant for our stance. We're bombarded daily by these thoughts...
How can love be wrong?

If this were a church who believed you can be a Christian and murder, or lie, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be on the same page.

All sinners think their sin is acceptable to God.

We have plenty of "conservative" Apostolic churches that advocate murder and lie and we have been socially conditioned to accept it. For example, most conservative churches radically support the death penalty because they see it in the OT. They also support Christians being actively involved in combative military actions. Yet in America up to 11% of those executed have been later found to have been innocent of the crimes charged, had received insufficient legal counsel, or a fair and legal trial. If just one innocent person is executed the system has innocent blood on it's hands.

In just the Iraq War an estimated 80,000 non-combatant civilians have been killed as collateral damage or in the cross-fire between coalition troops and insurgents. Not to mention the war's justification is questionable. We don't question these things as Christians. Our churches don't have the courage to stand up to the "conservative political correctness" and command a purely "Christian Ethos". Early Pentecostal pioneers united and began licensing to qualify for consciencious objector status. They also openly spoke out against war. It was said by one early 20th century Christian leader that Christians shouldn't sacrifice their children on the altar of the modern Moloch of patriotism...because we are not of this world, the last thing we should be are pawns in it's wars.

Also most Christians oppose any efforts to make sure that all Americans have the health insurance they need to survive. Thousands of Americans die each year because they just don't have medical insurance. Christians attack, denigrate, denounce, mock, and rebuke anyone who would advocate finding a way to cover all Americans.

In short...most conservative churches in America only believe in the sanctity of life in relation to one issue...abortion. The unborn are defended...the innocent sentenced to death is accepted, the high cost of life found in the wake of war is accepted, the loss of life from treatable sickness and disease is accepted. What stings the conscience of so many is that the church would have defended all these people and sought to protect their lives before they were born...but once born the church shifts into situational ethics accepting their deaths in so many other circumstances.

Oh well. My point is that though the perspective isn't popular, many of our churches do allow murder. Then they pull out their Bibles and excuse themselves.

It's all the same as the gay church in question. But for the record I certainly wouldn't have attended the gay church.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All sinners think their sin is acceptable to God.

We have plenty of "conservative" Apostolic churches that advocate murder and lie and we have been socially conditioned to accept it. For example, most conservative churches radically support the death penalty because they see it in the OT. They also support Christians being actively involved in combative military actions. Yet in America up to 11% of those executed have been later found to have been innocent of the crimes charged, had received insufficient legal counsel, or a fair and legal trial. If just one innocent person is executed the system has innocent blood on it's hands.

In just the Iraq War an estimated 80,000 non-combatant civilians have been killed as collateral damage or in the cross-fire between coalition troops and insurgents. Not to mention the war's justification is questionable. We don't question these things as Christians. Our churches don't have the courage to stand up to the "conservative political correctness" and command a purely "Christian Ethos". Early Pentecostal pioneers united and began licensing to qualify for consciencious objector status. They also openly spoke out against war. It was said by one early 20th century Christian leader that Christians shouldn't sacrifice their children on the altar of the modern Moloch of patriotism...because we are not of this world, the last thing we should be are pawns in it's wars.

Also most Christians oppose any efforts to make sure that all Americans have the health insurance they need to survive. Thousands of Americans die each year because they just don't have medical insurance. Christians attack, denigrate, denounce, mock, and rebuke anyone who would advocate finding a way to cover all Americans.

In short...most conservative churches in America only believe in the sanctity of life in relation to one issue...abortion. The unborn are defended...the innocent sentenced to death is accepted, the high cost of life found in the wake of war is accepted, the loss of life from treatable sickness and disease is accepted. What stings the conscience of so many is that the church would have defended all these people and sought to protect their lives before they were born...but once born the church shifts into situational ethics accepting their deaths in so many other circumstances.

Oh well. My point is that though the perspective isn't popular, many of our churches do allow murder. Then they pull out their Bibles and excuse themselves.

It's all the same as the gay church in question. But for the record I certainly wouldn't have attended the gay church.

Under the OT administration it was 'murder' to execute someone and there were not just wars? Seems that Hebrews 2 the writer refers to the OT law and penalties being "just". This isn't a culture justice that changes according to convention.

Any law can be abused but you would throw all penalties out due to the misuse by fallible humans.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Under the OT administration it was 'murder' to execute someone and there were not just wars? Seems that Hebrews 2 the writer refers to the OT law and penalties being "just". This isn't a culture justice that changes according to convention.

Any law can be abused but you would throw all penalties out due to the misuse by fallible humans.

First, God's choice to institute execution among his people was necessary seeing that God's focus was a nation. I'm not saying that the death penalty isn't necessary. I'm saying that we should view it with extreme reserve and always remind ourselves that we aren't ancient Israel and that our system is often flawed. We therefore should advocate that all measures be taken to save the life of the condemned on the grounds that they may indeed be innocent. When DNA evidence or outright confessions are made perhaps it's more justifiable. Again, I'm not against the death penalty. I just have reservations against a wholesale embrace of it. I see it as incongruous to support prison ministry and mercy...and yet support the death penalty wholesale. Typically the death penalty is persued in a spirit of revenge not justice. This is why we've executed some who were innocent. Revenge can bring a mad rush to judgment that clouds justice. So in short I have reservations about the death penalty, I feel we should always advocate on the side of mercy, teach forgiveness no matter how difficult, and even when the condemned are executed...I believe that a Christian shouldn't flip the switch but rather close their eyes and pray that it be fast for the sake of the condemned. Do they deserve it? Absolutely not. My human nature says, "Fry 'em!" But that's my flesh. My spirit sees a soul. It sees the death penalty as a final tragedy in the situation. Two tragedies...the loss of the victime...and the loss of the condemned.

As for Israel's wars. You will remember that in the beginning God himself defended Israel supernaturally. When Israel did march to war they marched under the DIRECT order from God as spoken through the prophets. They weren't sent by a President who counseled with staff. It was ordered by God himself. Also again, God was focused upon a nation. Today he is focused on us as individual people called out from the nations. Therefore these wars don't compare to war today. To continue, after Israel grew in power and demanded a king God slowy began backing away from being the defender of the nation. The prophet Samuel even warned them that a king would use their children to wage wars and serve his interests. From that point forward Israel's protection was increasingly in their own hands until God completely turned them over to their enemies culminating in what happened in the year 70 AD. War is the scourge of humanity.

Also consider how governments have been known to lie to justify war. How does a Christian know when they are truly engaged in a justified military action? When a Christian participates in this world's military they accept being pawns of the government that can be used in an unjustified manner. Even in Hilter's Germany the average German soldier believed the Allies were out to destroy the German Fatherland and their beloved culture and history. Lies abounded in Hitler's propaganda. Often they just wanted to preserve what they felt the Allies would destroy. When Hitler invaded a country he never said, "We'll invade them though they did us no harm." No, Hitler always claimed the nations he invaded served as threats to his Germany and that pre-emptive action was necessary to preserve the German state from enemies who hated her. Can a Christian truly "trust" fallen worldly governments to always act righteously? No. Could you see an American Apostolic serving in the American military meeting a foreign Apostolic serving in his nation's military meeting on the battlefield killing eachother, each believing the other nation is the aggressor? No. Therefore I believe we should refrain from allowing ourselves to be pawns in this world's wars. If any Christian participates in the military surely it would be best to serve in a non-combatant fashion. But still the ethical questions of possibly participating in an unjustified war of national self interest should cause us pause and consideration.

Also consider that civilians caught in the crossfire, manipulated, beaten, and interrogated often walk away having paid the highest cost of war. In Iraq it's estimated that tens of thousands of civilians (men, women, and children) have been killed. War is often presented with patriotism, glamor, valor, and glory...it's reality is rarely told. How can we advocate that Christians shouldn't attend movie theaters because of the sexual content, rape, violence, murder, and madness portrayed...yet advocate that Christians participate with war in real life? All these things are in abundance in the shadows of war.

Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world.

We should stand and speak regarding the value of life in every context. Life is either sacred or it isn't.

But Dave, this thread is about CeCe and churches with gay affirming theology. Let's stay on topic.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

First, God's choice to institute execution among his people was necessary seeing that God's focus was a nation. I'm not saying that the death penalty isn't necessary. I'm saying that we should view it with extreme reserve and always remind ourselves that we aren't ancient Israel and that our system is often flawed. We therefore should advocate that all measures be taken to save the life of the condemned on the grounds that they may indeed be innocent. When DNA evidence or outright confessions are made perhaps it's more justifiable. Again, I'm not against the death penalty. I just have reservations against a wholesale embrace of it. I see it as incongruous to support prison ministry and mercy...and yet support the death penalty wholesale. Typically the death penalty is persued in a spirit of revenge not justice. This is why we've executed some who were innocent. Revenge can bring a mad rush to judgment that clouds justice. So in short I have reservations about the death penalty, I feel we should always advocate on the side of mercy, teach forgiveness no matter how difficult, and even when the condemned are executed...I believe that a Christian shouldn't flip the switch but rather close their eyes and pray that it be fast for the sake of the condemned. Do they deserve it? Absolutely not. My human nature says, "Fry 'em!" But that's my flesh. My spirit sees a soul. It sees the death penalty as a final tragedy in the situation. Two tragedies...the loss of the victime...and the loss of the condemned.

As for Israel's wars. You will remember that in the beginning God himself defended Israel supernaturally. When Israel did march to war they marched under the DIRECT order from God as spoken through the prophets. They weren't sent by a President who counseled with staff. It was ordered by God himself. Also again, God was focused upon a nation. Today he is focused on us as individual people called out from the nations. Therefore these wars don't compare to war today. To continue, after Israel grew in power and demanded a king God slowy began backing away from being the defender of the nation. The prophet Samuel even warned them that a king would use their children to wage wars and serve his interests. From that point forward Israel's protection was increasingly in their own hands until God completely turned them over to their enemies culminating in what happened in the year 70 AD. War is the scourge of humanity.

Also consider how governments have been known to lie to justify war. How does a Christian know when they are truly engaged in a justified military action? When a Christian participates in this world's military they accept being pawns of the government that can be used in an unjustified manner. Even in Hilter's Germany the average German soldier believed the Allies were out to destroy the German Fatherland and their beloved culture and history. Lies abounded in Hitler's propaganda. Often they just wanted to preserve what they felt the Allies would destroy. When Hitler invaded a country he never said, "We'll invade them though they did us no harm." No, Hitler always claimed the nations he invaded served as threats to his Germany and that pre-emptive action was necessary to preserve the German state from enemies who hated her. Can a Christian truly "trust" fallen worldly governments to always act righteously? No. Could you see an American Apostolic serving in the American military meeting a foreign Apostolic serving in his nation's military meeting on the battlefield killing eachother, each believing the other nation is the aggressor? No. Therefore I believe we should refrain from allowing ourselves to be pawns in this world's wars. If any Christian participates in the military surely it would be best to serve in a non-combatant fashion. But still the ethical questions of possibly participating in an unjustified war of national self interest should cause us pause and consideration.

Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world.

We should stand and speak regarding the value of life in every context. Life is either sacred or it isn't.

I'm working a series of 12 hrs shifts thru Sunday so please forgive the brevity and the sporadic nature of my answers.

You said "Since God is no longer focused on building a nation but rather a called out people, much of what was done in the OT isn't applicable but rather serves as spiritual types and shadows. Today we do not violently wage war in the flesh...we wage war in the spirit through preaching and teaching God's Word in a lost and fallen world. "

This is where we have a fundamental difference. You believe that "much" of the OT law serves as a mere example. I believe that the hermanutical principle is that the provisions of the law remain intact unless changed by the Writer of the new covenant. While God may not have a 'earthly' people, per se, He does exercise authority over the nations of the world and installs the rulers as His ministers to carry out justice. This is not an arbitrary justice. Justice, to be just, can not be arbitrary or changing. There must be a law above the local/national civil law. I agree that through history most rulers have not followed that law that that in no way negates it's necessity. They are held responsible for keeping it.

You show examples of justice being perverted and I agree. We must be careful to execute extreme caution be for rendering the death penalty. I have no problem there and we have many tools at our disposal, that the ancients didn't have, that help us determine the facts of the case.

The scripture calls Christ's civil ministers(magistrates) to dispense the 'wrath', 'vengeance', and 'fear' of God against civil disobedience. BTW, this is New
Testament. It is clear that God has ordained both temporal and eternal judgment. Where are the magistrates of the earth to get their guidance for proper punishment that is just, fair, and not arbitrary?

Sorry! Got to run.....