Universal Health Care

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

Maybe you need to revisit the scripture about "cheerful giving" God likes someone like that.

Even before I became a Christian that it was the right thing to do to have someone have access to basic medical care.

You have a hard time with reading what I just wrote. Mighty cold up there eh?

I said that I'm all for benevolent giving. Just recently our church paid for a member's operation. I believe in it!

When one uses the term 'right' it means someone HAS to provide that right. I do not see in scripture where government has the authority to steal from me to give to you.....

"Cheerful giving"? You bet. Not forced but gracefully.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

You have a hard time with reading what I just wrote. Mighty cold up there eh?

I said that I'm all for benevolent giving. Just recently our church paid for a member's operation. I believe in it!

When one uses the term 'right' it means someone HAS to provide that right. I do not see in scripture where government has the authority to steal from me to give to you.....

"Cheerful giving"? You bet. Not forced but gracefully.

Socialism has a mighty powerful siren's song for a sales pitch. The really fun part is when less than 50% of the population fund the system, and more than 50% are on the dole. That is known as "the tipping point," and the only recovery is via revolution or collapse. Even pure democracy has its perils. That's why America was founded to be a constitutional republic - NOT a democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is an armed sheep contesting the vote.

The founding fathers knew that pure democracy was inherently unstable, and that is why the original system only allowed landowners to vote. The price of participation was demonstration that you had a stake in the success of the system, and that you had at least a modicum of life skill competence.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Socialism has a mighty powerful siren's song for a sales pitch. The really fun part is when less than 50% of the population fund the system, and more than 50% are on the dole. That is known as "the tipping point," and the only recovery is via revolution or collapse. Even pure democracy has its perils. That's why America was founded to be a constitutional republic - NOT a democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper. Liberty is an armed sheep contesting the vote.

The founding fathers knew that pure democracy was inherently unstable, and that is why the original system only allowed landowners to vote. The price of participation was demonstration that you had a stake in the success of the system, and that you had at least a modicum of life skill competence.

The US stopped being a Republic.
It is now an empire-an empire teetering on collaspe!

[Ron]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

You have a hard time with reading what I just wrote. Mighty cold up there eh?

I said that I'm all for benevolent giving. Just recently our church paid for a member's operation. I believe in it!

When one uses the term 'right' it means someone HAS to provide that right. I do not see in scripture where government has the authority to steal from me to give to you.....

"Cheerful giving"? You bet. Not forced but gracefully.

And Bro you ain't hearing me!
I am against Taxation-period.

That being said, if they are going to tax us, why not put it to good use.
We pay for police protection, fire protection, education, defense, etc;

Making sure that everyone has food, clothing, shelter, & medical care & an affordable price.

If you have issue with Health, you should have issue with the rest of your Taxes!

I am saying we should make sure that there is no lack for food, housing, or medical care, at least in North America.
Do you have a problem with that?

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Ron

And Bro you ain't hearing me!
I am against Taxation-period.

That being said, if they are going to tax us, why not put it to good use.
We pay for police protection, fire protection, education, defense, etc;

The issue is that we have been tricked into believing that subsidizing the individual needs of some groups of people is an analogous category of public spending as defense and fire protection. It isn't. Social programs are not in the interest of the general public, but in the interest of special interest groups. It is actually a disservice to the groups that it enslaves in a virtually inescapable cycle of dependency.

The bureaucracies that administer the programs quickly become cancerous, making conscious effort to continually expand their budgets, regardless of the true measure of need in their area.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

The issue is that we have been tricked into believing that subsidizing the individual needs of some groups of people is an analogous category of public spending as defense and fire protection. It isn't. Social programs are not in the interest of the general public, but in the interest of special interest groups. It is actually a disservice to the groups that it enslaves in a virtually inescapable cycle of dependency.

The bureaucracies that administer the programs quickly become cancerous, making conscious effort to continually expand their budgets, regardless of the true measure of need in their area.

It is a terrible thing when people need health care!
Cancer, Heart Disease, not my problem!

It is clear to see who would walk to the other side of the road when the man taken among thieves was in need of a good Samaritan!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Ron

It is a terrible thing when people need health care!
Cancer, Heart Disease, not my problem!

It is clear to see who would walk to the other side of the road when the man taken among thieves was in need of a good Samaritan!

May I summarize your argument?

"You're a doody-head!

It really isn't that hard of a principle to understand. A government that disregards the interests of the individual over the interests of the group when it comes to the collection of funds is ALSO going to disregard the interests of the individual over the interests of the group when it comes to the PAYOUT OF BENEFITS. It's a systemic disregard and sense of superiority, not a localized incident.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

And Bro you ain't hearing me!
I am against Taxation-period.

That being said, if they are going to tax us, why not put it to good use.
We pay for police protection, fire protection, education, defense, etc;

Making sure that everyone has food, clothing, shelter, & medical care & an affordable price.

If you have issue with Health, you should have issue with the rest of your Taxes!

I am saying we should make sure that there is no lack for food, housing, or medical care, at least in North America.
Do you have a problem with that?

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

The original mission of the federal government was to defend the coasts and provide a common currency. No standing army was allowed.

Interstate commerce clause, you've come a long way, baby!

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

A biblical definition of justice is in order,

Holman Bible Dictionary

JUSTICE
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T3548

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat, particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17, REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19. Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and… loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18, NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12; Isaiah 30:18).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17; Psalms 146:7-9; Malachi 3:5). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2; Ecclesiastes 4:1). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28; Job 29:12-17). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9; compare Micah 2:2; Micah 4:4) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Deuteronomy 24:6). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18; Psalms 146:7), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13), and shelter (Psalms 68:6; Job 8:6). Job 22:5-9,Job 22:23; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process (Deuteronomy 16:18-20). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts (Leviticus 25:28). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalms 76:9; Isaiah 45:8; Isaiah 58:11; Isaiah 62:1-2). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalms 68:5-10; Psalms 10:15-16; compare 107; Psalms 113:7-9). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10; compare Luke 1:51-53; Luke 6:20-26).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalms 99:1-4; Genesis 18:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Jeremiah 9:24), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalms 76:9; Psalms 103:6; Jeremiah 49:11). Justice thus is universal (Psalms 9:7-9) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26; 2 Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8; Isaiah 1:11-17; Matthew 5:23-24), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10), tithing (Matthew 23:23), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13). See Law; Government; Poverty; Righteousness; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

Dave, it's obvious you and many others have a limited understanding of biblical justice. That's understandable though, because most political conservatives ignore this teaching of the Bible. As a matter of fact they would love to cut it out of the Bible. But God won't let them and is calling a new generation of Christian to confront this Social Darwinism of the Conservative Movement. The churlish teachings of the modern conservative are doomed to fall to the power of God's Holy Word. We stand as a new generation of reformers...standing in opposition to the Right Wing's greed, extortion, and religious pomp and power.