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[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree that "naive" is a much better choice of word than "ignorant".

As to the new converts being the only ones that are not aware of the "candy stick" mentality. You are probably right, BUT......

Let me share the story first. You may remember me telling this.

Brother Billy Cole was preaching at BOTT some years ago. He, in a normal tone, said, "God is doing great things."

The audience does not respond.

He elevates his voice. "GOD IS DOING GREAT THINGS!!!"

Loud clapping and verbal response. He talks a little longer and does the whole thing again, beginning with the normal tone of voice. Same exact response.

He then goes on to say, "Do you see what you did? You did not respond to what I said. You responded to how I said it! Someday we will learn."

I have observed through the years that the congregation, largely, is waiting for instructions on when to respond and how to do that. I think it is unfortunate that this occurs.

So, really, the "candy stick" kinda sweeps over the new converts and grabs the seasoned saint. JMHO.

I do understand what you're saying. I think it takes some spiritual maturity to respond just as well to what a soft-spoken missionary or elder minister will say just as well as someone who speaks loudly, charismatically and really grabs your attention. (As opposed to paying attention)

That's largely cultural, too, don't you think? We are media-trained to respond to what is loud, bright, colorful, exciting and *gasp* entertaining! Furthermore, the church culture has (IMO) squelched spontaneous worship in exchange for dictated worship, so even in a highly charged, liberated atmosphere, folks are still trying to do what they are "supposed" to do. I have seen people stop worshiping when the music stopped--not because they wanted to, but because they didn't want to be disruptive or be out of order.

This brings up something else interesting that I just thought of...does it ever seem like music is a "cover" for worship? It seems that sometimes people are too embarrassed to really call out to God and really express themselves, unless there is music or singing loudly assisting them or playing over them so they are sort of unnoticed....hmmmm. Perhaps we have made folks feel so self-conscious about expression and worship that they only time they feel comfortable doing it is when the music is up.

btw, I was at that BOTT. I remember BC doing that!

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The problem is the author assumed that because HE was carnal and looking on in a daze that the rest of the congregation's worship was equally meaningless. It is okay to have an emotional response to God's presence, it is okay to be emotional in our praise to Him, and it is okay to slow down if the tempo doesn't match hanging from the chandeliers--none of those things equate a lack of sincerity or authenticity on the part of those who were worshipping. It only indicated the author's state of mind.

It also indicates arrogance, because while he thought he was controlling the service by speeding up the music or slowing it down, he really was still just facilitating folks' praise in spite of himself, and instead of being an obstacle as he intended, he ended up still helping them be expressive!

I have heard musicians say in the past that they "controlled" the service one way or the other--nonsense! God is in control. There is no way one narcissistic musician or music director can turn an entire church full of sincere worshipers in the wrong direction. The fact that they are observing and attributing it to themselves is only more evidence of their own carnality.

Again, folks' response to the tempo or rhythm of music does NOT negate their worship experience!

Do we really think God is so small that He will look away from sincere worship because the keyboardist is playing around with different rhythms and riffs and is in total disconnect? No, He'll probably just ignore the keyboardist and bless everyone else!

I think you have a valid point and I think the author has one as well.

You are right I believe those present during the authors worship service were sincere.

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

Only later to have a woman come to me later and say how good the music was at so n so's church. She was raptured to the 3rd heaven as the worship leader strung his guitar, with tears running down her face she said 'I told God I want to sing like that' and then she said "God told you will and more".

She came to me with this story..I know it was her emotions that were stirred, and then she announced "God has called me to sing-" well she decided to join the praise team..and guess what, she could not sing---and then became very upset and touchy when someone was asked to sing along with the other praise singers. She ended up leaving church.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread

[Elizabeth]

My oh my I hate my computer it took FOREVER to write that-I had to log back in several times and every time I used my backspace it would back up to the previous item I was viewing---FRUSTRATING!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I do understand what you're saying. I think it takes some spiritual maturity to respond just as well to what a soft-spoken missionary or elder minister will say just as well as someone who speaks loudly, charismatically and really grabs your attention. (As opposed to paying attention)

That's largely cultural, too, don't you think? We are media-trained to respond to what is loud, bright, colorful, exciting and *gasp* entertaining! Furthermore, the church culture has (IMO) squelched spontaneous worship in exchange for dictated worship, so even in a highly charged, liberated atmosphere, folks are still trying to do what they are "supposed" to do. I have seen people stop worshiping when the music stopped--not because they wanted to, but because they didn't want to be disruptive or be out of order.

This brings up something else interesting that I just thought of...does it ever seem like music is a "cover" for worship? It seems that sometimes people are too embarrassed to really call out to God and really express themselves, unless there is music or singing loudly assisting them or playing over them so they are sort of unnoticed....hmmmm. Perhaps we have made folks feel so self-conscious about expression and worship that they only time they feel comfortable doing it is when the music is up.

btw, I was at that BOTT. I remember BC doing that!

Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.

That is a leadership issue, though. However you are trained it will continue to filter down the pike.

Yes, I do think music is sometimes a cover. People are embarrassed to express themselves because they are largely unsure of how they can actually respond or will they be accepted, is the moment right, is it just me, what do I do, should I respond now......?

My husband often says he would rather someone do something wrong then to make people feel afraid to respond at all. You can train someone who may have gotten a bit out of order, but if you put fear in people, it can take years to recover if they ever do.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeanie

I think you have a valid point and I think the author has one as well.

You are right I believe those present during the authors worship service were sincere.

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

Only later to have a woman come to me later and say how good the music was at so n so's church. She was raptured to the 3rd heaven as the worship leader strung his guitar, with tears running down her face she said 'I told God I want to sing like that' and then she said "God told you will and more".

She came to me with this story..I know it was her emotions that were stirred, and then she announced "God has called me to sing-" well she decided to join the praise team..and guess what, she could not sing---and then became very upset and touchy when someone was asked to sing along with the other praise singers. She ended up leaving church.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread

Amen, good post, Jeanie! I agree with every word!

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.

That is a leadership issue, though. However you are trained it will continue to filter down the pike.

Yes, I do think music is sometimes a cover. People are embarrassed to express themselves because they are largely unsure of how they can actually respond or will they be accepted, is the moment right, is it just me, what do I do, should I respond now......?

My husband often says he would rather someone do something wrong then to make people feel afraid to respond at all. You can train someone who may have gotten a bit out of order, but if you put fear in people, it can take years to recover if they ever do.

I agree with this, seeing God in the quite moments.

I have seen so many people struggle with this, to them it's too difficult to relate to God on this level.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jeanie

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I would venture that all of our responses are out of our flesh! But maybe some of them are carnal? That doesn't make them bad--really--but maybe misguided.

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Right--and I've cried watching movies--it isn't the Spirit moving upon me!

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

I think that "breaking people down" (for lack of a better term...lol) is one of the aims of music--it allows them to connect and take down walls in a nonthreatening way. So moving songs, moving dramatic presentations, stirring solos--these things all serve a purpose, even when they can't necessarily be worshiped with. There are some great drama folks out there who can draw the congregation in with something funny or sad, and then once their guard is down, they put in the real point and it falls where it needs to instead of on a hard, protected heart.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

Sure. We are creatures of habit. We tend to take authentic response, and once it has happened several times in a row--we do it just because. It's called a Rut. I know people who treat their prayer time that way--they have to pray an hour, whether they say anything meaningful or not, and sometimes they just fill in the time with "Glory, glory", and watch the clock with one eye until an hour is up! I don't see how that's fruitful! If we get into a rut, or we're doing something out of habit, and its not from our heart, its time to step back and re-evaluate, and maybe rearrange our worship.

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I would call it praise. I tend to separate them a little...worship seems to come more from the heart, and "praise" seems to be giving God praise because He deserves it and it feels good to give Him what He wants. Maybe I'm defining them wrong. I'm not too bothered by the "stopping" when the music stops, because most folks would feel that they were out of order if they were to continue worshiping without music, even if they wanted to continue.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

That IS immature, and some of the best worship services I have been in have been with just Sis. Ewing on the organ at Eastwood or my Dad playing the guitar at our home church, or my oldest sister on the piano singing choruses. I get a bit sick and tired of the bashing towards young people that goes on, though...older folks feel they can't worship with the "new" music, but yet they expect the younger ones to worship with unfamiliar hymns and old songs. There needs to be something for everyone, and most good music directors will try to facilitate the entire congregation--not just one group.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread

Sometimes the two are connected or overlapping so its kind of hard to separate it, except within your own heart. You know whether you are responding to God's presence or a great note!

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.

Double AMEN that!!

I believe we need more quiet times in the Lord ...

I do not believe we give God enough time in the services. (We have a schedule to keep, you know.)

We need to wait more often... we get too anxious to try to make it happen.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

Double AMEN that!!

I believe we need more quiet times in the Lord ...

I do not believe we give God enough time in the services. (We have a schedule to keep, you know.)

We need to wait more often... we get too anxious to try to make it happen.

I completely agree.

There have been days, though, even at home, when I needed to play a little music to get myself into the right frame of mind for prayer. I usually choose "quiet" music for myself. I save the fast, choir stuff for playing full blast when I'm cleaning house or dancing around with the kids. Or dancing through the kitchen looking silly--only to myself and the cats!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeanie

I agree with this, seeing God in the quite moments.

I have seen so many people struggle with this, to them it's too difficult to relate to God on this level.

You are so right. But, really, I've been trained through the years that the loud expression is the best - you know - make a joyful noise......?

I've posted this before, but it really made an indelible impression on me forever and I'm sure I will reference it again.

One day, during my regular prayer time, I was struggling and so I began to clap and say, loudly, "I love you Jesus!!!" Lord, that made me more frustrated.

Soooo, I knelt by the bed and simply said, in a quiet voice, "I love you Jesus."

Wellllll, His Spirit flooded that bedroom!!! How easy was that? He just wanted my heart!!!

I didn't have to turn cartwheels or hang from a chandelier to get His attention.

Let me also go on record as saying, "If you come out of the prayer room and you have a shout in your feet - shout your hair down if you want to!" I am not against noise.

I am for, carefully, following after His Spirit. It's takes time and patience. None of us are God. We don't know what people are thinking and needing when they walk through those doors. God is the only one that knows. Why manipulate the people. Why not just take some time and find out what door God wants us to walk through and throw that thing open when we find it and do our Pentecostal business? - in the Holy Ghost!!!