You have such a tender heart and a spirit for the souls of people. Everything we say and do should be genuine and truthful, even on AFF! There are so many differing views here, I will share with you why I enjoyed JCM so much. Although they taught things that I had never heard before [I was raised in an ultra-conservative church with a Pastor who was an excellent teacher] they never tried to change my views on anything. They always publically, when they were put on the spot, told us to pray and search it out for ourselves. They never told us to take their word for it.
I said that to say; If we post and say, "You know, this is what I think/feel/believe, but you need to search it out for yourself and pray about it and trust the leading of the Holy Spirit in your own life." If we do this then we would be less offensive, and more Christlike.
Very few people on AFF are here to try and convince or 'save' others through their point of view. We're just glad for a fellowship of believers we can run our thoughts by from time to time.
I believe it is true that we must be careful how we influence others. But there is a ditch on both sides of the road. For, me, the most dangerous thing there is in regards to the word is requiring something of someone FOR salvation that God does NOT require. I personally believe that is heresy of the worst kind.
There is nothing wrong with personal convictions. We all have them and we all have standards in our lives which we live by. But the real danger is requiring something of God's people that He does not require. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with an Ultra-Con living out an Ultra-Con lifestyle. More power to them!!! But when they state that it is required for salvation, then I have a problem with it. I fully and completely respect someone with "strict" standards. But when they try to state that I MUST do the same or I am going to hell, then I have a real problem with that, and I believe God does as well.
When we tell people that unless they speak with tongues, they are going to hell, I believe that grieves the heart of God. Speaking in tongues is a biblical experience promised to ALL, but when we state that we have to flap our lips to escape the flames of hell, I believe that is heresy.
So, yes, we must be careful, but we also need to be careful about what we're careful about!
You are right about ditches on both sides of the road, and we would all do well to lay off the judgement of other Christians.
While TP did mention "Standards" I think what he wrote could be applied to folks close to either "ditch"... It is not uncommon for those with a liberal mindset and worldview to lose their faith entirely. The liberal denominations have had even less success in keeping the faith than Evangelicals.
It is incumbent on the Christian community to find factual answers to the hard questions without compromising their faith and not shut down inquisitive minds in favor of emotionalism and esoteric theology. The facts are, after all, on our side
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Let me just preface this with a couple of thoughts. I want it perfectly clear that I am not posting these thoughts out of malice or anger. These emotions are the farthest from my heart as I type this. This post may offend some and for that, please accept my extended virtual arm as an olive branch. If you take the time to read this entire post, God bless you.
I have heard the argument made that no one would possibly change their mind or reform their beliefs due to a forum post or thread. In simple review of that statement, I can concede initially that should be the case. But we must admit that we now live in a world in which the predominately most powerful tool used to gather information is where we are abiding right now, the internet. People are searching for information; people are seeking answers. And we here on AFF are just one portal out of millions that someone may stumble across. Does that make us insignificant? Does that make our opinions and arguments for certain beliefs, established or otherwise, have less weight. I think not. If one person’s faith is uplifted or conversely, undermined by a word or statement, how monumental is that influence?
I have been troubled in the last few days, as I have observed people asking genuine questions regarding certain beliefs, “traditions” or “standards.” You can place your own word there if you feel those are inappropriate. Then I see a rush of posters eager to weigh in with their opinion, either for or against the issue. I have been guilty of this myself. I have been convicted of it. This may surprise some because I usually stand on the more conservative or hard line of things, but most would be equally surprised that I hold some moderate views on issues as well.
God has burdened me with this thought: If I sway someone to a point of view that I feel absolutely biblically correct in, and it shatters their faith in not just their view on that issue, but causes them to question multiple things from whence they received their teaching and instruction, have I done the right thing? If my interpretation of scripture causes someone to review their stance on a certain standard that they have followed by tradition or admonition from another, is it possible that I have caused them to question not just peripheral issues of their upbringing and learning, but also influenced them to look at the core of their beliefs because I provoked in them new thinking? Is it valid that I could debate something that is not salvational and cause someone to lose their soul?
God forgive me if I have ever done so. God forgive me if I ever point someone in the wrong direction by arguing my personal convictions. I realize that this may go against some of “usual” ways we go about discussing issues here, but I have laid my heart out today thinking about this and wept as I have typed. I am disturbed when I see us, as a body of believers in the revelation of Jesus Christ, point those to articles whose content chooses to destroy a belief, however correct we may think it to be, but those who are asking for the info run to it for confirmation. I am concerned when we point people to websites that have no edifying qualities for the body, but rather give examples of how the faithful have been trampled or abused. These areas that we point people into may even be factually correct, but ultimately spiritually demoralizing.
So, there you have it. I am not sure how this will be received here. I am certainly not a “top” poster here. I may be chastised or some may want to put my head on the chopping block. Whether you and I see eye to eye on everything from cut hair to clear nail polish; whether we are miles apart on TV to tube tops, I hope that I can always remember that we are leading people to Christ and His likeness and not our own.
Excellent words - all of it, but especially the highlighted!! So glad you posted this!!!
Good post TP!
You're to be commended for your thoughtfulness and sober introspection. This is an example we should all emulate. Having said that, let me also state that we all stand as individuals before God and will have to answer for our own soul's decisions. The mindless following of people after a "leader" is adverse to truly following the leading of the "Spirit".
The psalmist in Psalms 119:109 stated that his "soul was continually in his hand", and he illustrated it here, and throughout his life, that he was ultimately responsible for himself. If someone loses faith it will soon prove evident that it wasn't simply what one person said or did that caused the failure, but what truly did or did not reside in that person's heart. For too many for too long, the "path of truth" has been too restrictive and under the auspices of some very narrow minds. I am convinced that an open dialogue is healthy and the only way to discover truth. The truth is not afraid of "questions". The truth can withstand the most vigorous examination. It's impossible for truth to be threatened by truth! I'm glad for the questioning that is causing us all to go back and inspect our "foundation". There should be no fear nor anything to hide. Will there be casualties? Certainly! But let's not forget the one constant that endures through it all, God! God knows our frame and He is there to take care of our lack and mend our mis-steps.
I admire your sensitivity toward others, and you don't ever want to lose that, but let nothing deter us in our quest for the truth.
Raven
It is not just on the internet - but everywhere in every place that we must show Christ. We have no clue who is watching our words and deeds.
"Is it valid that I could debate something that is not salvational and cause someone to lose their soul?"
I think it is highly unlikely. While they may move away from their former positions, we really have no way of knowing their state in Christ prior to them inquiring and debating.
The one thing we do not need to discourage is critical thinking. We have a dire need for Christians who are willing to move beyond their feelings (which are very often unreliable) and reason with God given intellect.
I have to agree with this 100%.
__________________
Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
You are right about ditches on both sides of the road, and we would all do well to lay off the judgement of other Christians.
While TP did mention "Standards" I think what he wrote could be applied to folks close to either "ditch"... It is not uncommon for those with a liberal mindset and worldview to lose their faith entirely. The liberal denominations have had even less success in keeping the faith than Evangelicals.
It is incumbent on the Christian community to find factual answers to the hard questions without compromising their faith and not shut down inquisitive minds in favor of emotionalism and esoteric theology. The facts are, after all, on our side
This was indeed the intent of my post. I was not trying to single out one side of the Apostolic movement or the other and in fact, turned the tables upon myself. I am certainly not discouraging viable and thought provoking discussion. We have a great responsibility as Apostolics, to make sure that the discussion remains a positive experience. Of course, one's salvation should be rooted in prayer, study and personal conviction, but never should I leverage my argument for one issue or another to the detriment of their faith.
I hope that makes sense. I seem to be searching for the correct words. Sorry I haven't responded earlier. I took a day off.
__________________
Only the mediocre are at their best all the time.
This was indeed the intent of my post. I was not trying to single out one side of the Apostolic movement or the other and in fact, turned the tables upon myself. I am certainly not discouraging viable and thought provoking discussion. We have a great responsibility as Apostolics, to make sure that the discussion remains a positive experience. Of course, one's salvation should be rooted in prayer, study and personal conviction, but never should I leverage my argument for one issue or another to the detriment of their faith.
I hope that makes sense. I seem to be searching for the correct words. Sorry I haven't responded earlier. I took a day off.
Totally makes sense.
TP, I agree we should be very careful in regards to the babes in Christ and the weak in faith. Still yet, the bulk of the responsibility is on the individuals reading the forum and those who mentor them in real life.
Much of what is discussed in the forums is simply not for the new Christian nor the Christian who is weak or questioning the faith, but then the same goes for the internet in general.
In another perspective... it can be healthy to know that there are others with similar questions who share ones faith and wrestle to find difficult answers without throwing in the towel by questioning the inspiration of scripture or depart from the faith entirely. It can be comforting to know that there are multiple interpretations of scripture - even among brethren.
The important thing for all of us to remember, whether we are influencing or being influenced, is that this is ONLY a discussion board for believers who love Jesus. It is NOT intended to be a replacement for the regular interaction of the body on the local level, nor a replacement of God-placed leadership and mentorship.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
TP, I agree we should be very careful in regards to the babes in Christ and the weak in faith. Still yet, the bulk of the responsibility is on the individuals reading the forum and those who mentor them in real life.
Much of what is discussed in the forums is simply not for the new Christian nor the Christian who is weak or questioning the faith, but then the same goes for the internet in general.
In another perspective... it can be healthy to know that there are others with similar questions who share ones faith and wrestle to find difficult answers without throwing in the towel by questioning the inspiration of scripture or depart from the faith entirely. It can be comforting to know that there are multiple interpretations of scripture - even among brethren.
The important thing for all of us to remember, whether we are influencing or being influenced, is that this is ONLY a discussion board for believers who love Jesus. It is NOT intended to be a replacement for the regular interaction of the body on the local level, nor a replacement of God-placed leadership and mentorship.
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