FOX Lies!! Barack Obama Pastor Wright

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I hope you see my concern.

Chris, I do see your concern. with respect, I disagree with your end conclusion. I do not believe that Christians can afford to simply step aside and do nothing.

We fundimentally disagree. I do understand your perspective.

let me ask you this. If you feel so strongly about it, how then do you participate in the political arena at all?

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Chris, I do see your concern. with respect, I disagree with your end conclusion. I do not believe that Christians can afford to simply step aside and do nothing.

Christians do better to pray for all involved than to pick sides and kill for the interests of worldly powers. It may be that America experienced victories that spared live on account of Christians objecting to combat and praying for all involved.

let me ask you this. If you feel so strongly about it, how then do you participate in the political arena at all?

I typically vote Republican I just have this feeling down in my soul that a Republican victory will be very bad for our nation. When it comes to candidates I value honesty and sincerety over rather the politician has checked all the boxes on some test we give them on the issues. I feel Obama (though I definately have some disagreements with him, his church, and even his pastor) is the most sincere of those running. Hillary is largely concerned with reviving American prosperity and perpetuating the Clinton legacy. McCain strike me as a man who is a hireling of corporate lobbyists.

So I feel that I would do best by my own heart to vote for Obama. But...some things do give me pause and as more and more is revealed about all candidates I reserve the right to change my mind. But I'm nearly certain that I will not vote for McCain.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Christians do better to pray for all involved than to pick sides and kill for the interests of worldly powers. It may be that America experienced victories that spared live on account of Christians objecting to combat and praying for all involved.



I typically vote Republican I just have this feeling down in my soul that a Republican victory will be very bad for our nation. When it comes to candidates I value honesty and sincerety over rather the politician has checked all the boxes on some test we give them on the issues. I feel Obama (though I definately have some disagreements with him, his church, and even his pastor) is the most sincere of those running. Hillary is largely concerned with reviving American prosperity and perpetuating the Clinton legacy. McCain strike me as a man who is a hireling of corporate lobbyists.

So I feel that I would do best by my own heart to vote for Obama. But...some things do give me pause and as more and more is revealed about all candidates I reserve the right to change my mind. But I'm nearly certain that I will not vote for McCain.

While we dont agree, I respect your honsty in the answer here about who you are voting for and why, but that isnt my question.

the argument you have been making about what our role as Christians is, seems at odds with being involved politically at all.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Ferd

While we dont agree, I respect your honsty in the answer here about who you are voting for and why, but that isnt my question.

the argument you have been making about what our role as Christians is, seems at odds with being involved politically at all.

I personally see and accept Christian participation in all matters accept in the personal act of taking a life. I was a medic. I understand risking one's life in service to one's country. But to participate on such a level as to serving specifically for the sole purpose of taking life...I object.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I personally see and accept Christian participation in all matters accept in the personal act of taking a life. I was a medic. I understand risking one's life in service to one's country. But to participate on such a level as to serving specifically for the sole purpose of taking life...I object.

I can accept that answer. We dont agree but I respect the position.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I can accept that answer. We dont agree but I respect the position.

Thanks Ferd, don't get me wrong man, I know good men who have served in a combatant capacity. I don't think it's a sin to serve in a combatant capacity, but I do question the wisdom in doing so. In today's world with extended alliances and international treaties binding nations to action, not to mention the globalist agenda, I question the wisdom of being entangled in this world's system as a soldier.

For example the Joint Congressional Resolution passed by the House and the Senate, referred 16 UN resolutions which Iraq is alleged to have defied; those resolutions were cited as justification for a US invasion, but not one single reference was made to Congress' exclusive constitutional authority to declare war. With all the attempts by the administration to justify an invasion of Iraq by citing as authority UN resolutions and violations of UN resolutions by Iraq, one wonders if the president's primary concern was to further the interests of the United Nations or the interests of the United States which he was entrusted by the American people to champion.

By voluntarily choosing to be a combatant in military service is not the Christian agreeing to be a pawn in this new global society to be used as the United Nations Security Council deems fit?

Therefore I find it to be unwise and lacking discernment if the Christian volunteers for combatant service in the armed forces. The closer we get to the return of Christ the more likely any Christian serving will find themselves doing the bidding of globalist entities to secure their interests...not specifically the interests of the United States. I believe a time is upon us that calls for a greater degree of separation than we have known in previous decades. And that separation will become more and more important as we close in on the time of Christ's return.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I personally see and accept Christian participation in all matters accept in the personal act of taking a life. I was a medic. I understand risking one's life in service to one's country. But to participate on such a level as to serving specifically for the sole purpose of taking life...I object.

You better thank your lucky stars everybody does not share your views or this country would have ceased to exist many years ago.

IMHO any man not willing to defend his freedom, country, etc....well I can't say what I think or I would have to ban myself.

The Bible clearly differentiates between murder and just killing as demonstrated by one of the ten commandments being not to kill yet God ordered the Jewish people to kill on many occasions.

I suppose if your family is attacked in your home and a man or men are threatening to rape or murder your wife you are going to turn the other cheek?

IMHO justifying being a pacifist from the bible is distorting it just the same as the so called "prosperity gospel" proponents do. You are taking only a portion of the Bible and using it to oppose armed conflict for a just cause.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by CC1

You better thank your lucky stars everybody does not share your views or this country would have ceased to exist many years ago.

I think that those who have fought and won hard fought wars better thank their lucky stars for Christians who chose to wage war in prayer for their victory. I believe more is accomplished through prayer than struggle and revolution. I'd go as far as to argue that if it were not for conscientious Christians on their knees at home MORE soldiers and battles would have been lost on the battlefield.

IMHO any man not willing to defend his freedom, country, etc....well I can't say what I think or I would have to ban myself.

Defending one's country doesn't require shooting another scared young man who is convinced that he is defending his country's interests. I believe the Christian performs an even greater service in the defense of his country and countrymen through prayer and supplications before the Lord of Hosts than if that Christian were shooting at a squad other frightened young men who are convinced that they are defending their country, culture, or faith. It's entirely possible (and I believe it is so) that America would have been brought down long ago if not for those totally given over to prayer and supplications that strengthened and protected our soldiers on the battlefield.

The REAL battle isn't on the front lines...it's in the high places when we are on our knees. Praying Christians provide greater support than artillery.

The Bible clearly differentiates between murder and just killing as demonstrated by one of the ten commandments being not to kill yet God ordered the Jewish people to kill on many occasions.

When God manifests his presence and audibly commands us or speaks through a TRUE prophet imploring us to destroy a nation I will be in total and complete agreement. However, I'm convinced that our commission is to preach the Gospel. Christ will wage all the war that is needed and lead us personally when he returns in power and glory.

These are things I spent many an evening thinking about in prayer when I was in the military serving as a Combat Medic.

I suppose if your family is attacked in your home and a man or men are threatening to rape or murder your wife you are going to turn the other cheek?

Defense of my home is different. If someone enters my home unwelcome I can be fairly certain that they are a DIRECT threat to either myself or my family. If the President sends me to war it's questionable if I'm defending the Constitution or UN resolutions. Therefore defense of family cannot be compared with military service.

But consider the following:

If I am at war defending the authority of the UN Security Council and someone breaks into my home...who will protect my family? Is it my duty to protect them or the UN's interests?

If placed in a position to have to defend my family from an intruder I have several methods of responding at my disposal:

Escape
Martyrdom
Reliance on Divine Intervention
Ruse
Nonlethal Violence
Or Moral Disarming

-I can lead or call my family to escape our home. The robber may take what they will for nothing in my home is worth my life, my wife or child's life...or even the life of the invader. I couldn't live with myself if I killed an unsaved man and sent him straight to Hell over an entertainment center or watch collection.

-I can stand and allow myself to be taken down, pleading for the attacker's salvation as my family escapes.

-I can, and do, depend on God's miraculous power to intervene supernaturally or through other means.

-I can employ trickery or subterfuge to disarm or fool the invader.

-I can use nonlethal physical force if necessary to disarm or incapacitate the attacker if necessary.

-I can morally disarm an invader by showing love, respect, heartfelt moral superiority seeking the invaders welfare and using negotiation tactics.

I'm hardly a "pacifist". Jesus didn't call me to sit idly by and watch an attacker harm or kill someone. In some circumstances it would be appropriate to use whatever force necessary to halt, ward off, or incapacitate an attacker without the use of lethal force. I have a gift for any would be invader that will not kill them, but will leave them "standing in the need of prayer" if you catch my drift. However, under no circumstance would I seek to kill an attacker. I'm a Christian. That means I've come to grips with the reality of death. I had to do that in the military and I've had to revisit occasionally in personal devotions and Bible reading. We either believe in Heaven and eternal Salvation or we don't. It would be better for me to die and be saved than to take the life of a lost soul plunging them beyond God's mercy. I can only pray that my death in my attempt to thwart but not kill will have allowed my family to escape and open the door of opportunity for the attacker to find the salvation, peace, and Holy Ghost I have found in Jesus.

IMHO justifying being a pacifist from the bible is distorting it just the same as the so called "prosperity gospel" proponents do. You are taking only a portion of the Bible and using it to oppose armed conflict for a just cause.

IMHO you don't understand what Christian non-violence really means. When Jesus admonished us to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who persecute and dispitefully use us...I think that means we're not supposed to kill them. It is an evil should an attacker kill me...it is an even greater evil if I should kill an attacker and send them into an eternal Hell beyond God's mercy. I'm already dead...I'm crucified with Christ, and yet I live...not I...but Christ who lives within me.