Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Kae

Your perception of what goes on in this group I think is a little idealistic. This isn't like the Amish where they don't want to go forward, but want to stay back in time due to preserving family values. What you have described reminds me of the Amish community I used to live in. What is going on in that compound is totally different.

I'm sure that life inside this compound is different from the Amish. However, I don't think that things are so bad that I'm willing to believe everything people are saying. Some have argued that these people have killed and buried babies.

These children are brought up by different women not just their mothers

.

And? Many kids of grandmothers as primary guardians for quite a while, sometimes aunts and older sisters help raise children. You might say, "But they're blood." True, however these children don't have any extended family but these women. Most children in America are also raised in daycare (with multiple care givers) and have babysitters. I don't see this as a major issue as long as these children are still in the primary care and supervision of their own mothers. In my opinion it's simply an issue of communal living. We'd see similar parenting strategies in some African villages.

They don't have a family life that is normal.

LOL Define "normal". Normal according to whom? As I said before some communities in Africa would use communal parenting strategies. In addition this was even common in biblical times.

If a women decides to leave this compound she can do so, but can't take her children with her.

This is a valid issue concerning their religious culture that you and I agree upon as being over the top.

There is no love in this type of lifestyle it is fear and control. This is a cult that people are kept out of for a reason.

I do believe that there is excessive fear and control going on here. However, these are grown women who are willingly submitting to this. There is a degree of personal responsibility here. If they wanted to leave they have to know that they could. They also have to know that they could file suit in court to regain their children. Yes, there is a degree of control, but personal responsibility has to be a factor. My grandmother said that the church I attended when I was first saved was void of love and functioned on cultic fear and control.

I don't doubt that some young women were abused. I believe the police need to take action in these cases. They have no reason to take children from parents who committed no crime. It' not a crime for consenting adults to choose whatever living arrangement they prefer. It's also not a crime to engage in communal living. Also it isn't a crime to share parenting responsibilities. We have to address those specific cases where a crime was committed...but we can't use this as justification to persecute an entire community just because we don't agree with their religion, parenting styles, chosen living arrangements, or think their ways are abnormal as compared to our own.

Some people are so excited over using government to police these people, I'm surprised they haven't even been accused of cannibalism yet.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

... We have to address those specific cases where a crime was committed...but we can't use this as justification to persecute an entire community just because we don't agree with their religion, parenting styles, chosen living arrangements, or think their ways are abnormal as compared to our own.

Some people are so excited over using government to police these people, I'm surprised they haven't even been accused of cannibalism yet.

It is an interesting case for seeing how far the state should be allowed to dictate what is "normal" and "right." But since the criminal elements are clearly interwoven within the cultural elements, I think it would be hard for the state to simply pull "the criminals" and their "victims" out from the community without destroying the community.

And, when the state went in they were met with opposition that sought to confuse the already confusing parent-child relationships. How do you remove the "victim" and prosecute the "criminal" without a full accounting of who is bedding whom and what child was the result? It seems the state found such a tangled knot that they simply pulled out the whole ball of yarn.

There are clear genetic reasons for avoiding first cousins from marrying and for keeping uncles from marrying their related neices. The state ( you and me ) have an interest in this.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It is an interesting case for seeing how far the state should be allowed to dictate what is "normal" and "right." But since the criminal elements are clearly interwoven within the cultural elements, I think it would be hard for the state to simply pull "the criminals" and their "victims" out from the community without destroying the community.

And, when the state went in they were met with opposition that sought to confuse the already confusing parent-child relationships. How do you remove the "victim" and prosecute the "criminal" without a full accounting of who is bedding whom and what child was the result? It seems the state found such a tangled knot that they simply pulled out the whole ball of yarn.

There are clear genetic reasons for avoiding first cousins from marrying and for keeping uncles from marrying their related neices. The state ( you and me ) have an interest in this.

Good point. I pray they get this all worked out without compromising the case itself.

[DanielR]

After 381 post about this I think we have gotten to the point where we are

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by DanielR

After 381 post about this I think we have gotten to the point where we are

You obviously haven't been to the 1 steppers/3 stepper thread!

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

You obviously haven't been to the 1 steppers/3 stepper thread!

Your right, I haven't been on that thread just because of that reason.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I do believe that there is excessive fear and control going on here. However, these are grown women who are willingly submitting to this. There is a degree of personal responsibility here. If they wanted to leave they have to know that they could. They also have to know that they could file suit in court to regain their children. Yes, there is a degree of control, but personal responsibility has to be a factor. My grandmother said that the church I attended when I was first saved was void of love and functioned on cultic fear and control.

I don't doubt that some young women were abused. I believe the police need to take action in these cases. They have no reason to take children from parents who committed no crime. It' not a crime for consenting adults to choose whatever living arrangement they prefer. It's also not a crime to engage in communal living. Also it isn't a crime to share parenting responsibilities. We have to address those specific cases where a crime was committed...but we can't use this as justification to persecute an entire community just because we don't agree with their religion, parenting styles, chosen living arrangements, or think their ways are abnormal as compared to our own.

Some people are so excited over using government to police these people, I'm surprised they haven't even been accused of cannibalism yet.

Until you can understand the cult mentality that oppresses women I don't think you will get what I am trying to say. These women are born into this and know no other way of life. They are brainwashed into believing if they don't do whatever the men tell them to do they will go to hell. It isn't something that you can just rise above on a whim. Have you listened to the women speak? They sound very monotone and say the same thing. They are told what to say and if they don't face disciplinary measures. If they are told to lie that isn't wrong because the men know what is right. Their spirits are completely broken and they feel they have no hope.

Google Carolyn Jessup and read her story "Escape". I believe God had his hand on her, when you listen to her story she just made it out by the skin of her teeth. She isn't a bitter women, spouting lies either.

If it were just as simple as you make it sound, I wouldn't have a problem with it. These women have no choice at all in what happens to them. They are property.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Kae

Until you can understand the cult mentality that oppresses women I don't think you will get what I am trying to say. These women are born into this and know no other way of life. They are brainwashed into believing if they don't do whatever the men tell them to do they will go to hell. It isn't something that you can just rise above on a whim. Have you listened to the women speak? They sound very monotone and say the same thing. They are told what to say and if they don't face disciplinary measures. If they are told to lie that isn't wrong because the men know what is right. Their spirits are completely broken and they feel they have no hope.

Google Carolyn Jessup and read her story "Escape". I believe God had his hand on her, when you listen to her story she just made it out by the skin of her teeth. She isn't a bitter women, spouting lies either.

If it were just as simple as you make it sound, I wouldn't have a problem with it. These women have no choice at all in what happens to them. They are property.

Just a question, and not necessarily directed at you, Kae. Your post is what made me to think of it.

14, 15, and 16-year old girls are heavily sexually active in America.

Do you suppose the CPS people involved in this case see any problem in 15-year-old girls having sex with teenage boys? Public schools encourage teen sex, or mildly discourage it and then hand the kids condoms with a wink.

Is the only problem here the age DIFFERENCE between the men and girls?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Just a question, and not necessarily directed at you, Kae. Your post is what made me to think of it.

14, 15, and 16-year old girls are heavily sexually active in America.

Do you suppose the CPS people involved in this case see any problem in 15-year-old girls having sex with teenage boys? Public schools encourage teen sex, or mildly discourage it and then hand the kids condoms with a wink.

Is the only problem here the age DIFFERENCE between the men and girls?

Very keen observation OP!

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Just a question, and not necessarily directed at you, Kae. Your post is what made me to think of it.

14, 15, and 16-year old girls are heavily sexually active in America.

Do you suppose the CPS people involved in this case see any problem in 15-year-old girls having sex with teenage boys? Public schools encourage teen sex, or mildly discourage it and then hand the kids condoms with a wink.

Is the only problem here the age DIFFERENCE between the men and girls?

I would think the difference between 'our' 14, 15, and 16-year olds being sexually active and these others is: they have a choice. You can't compare being naughty with being controlled and abused.