Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Newman

The Mrs- The issue is about assigning collective guilt to the whole community because of the actions of a handful of people, if that.

A second issue goes to the very flimsy evidence they had before they began DNA testing. Could/or would that have been authorized if the phone call was known to be a hoax?

A third issue would go to how responsible we should hold mothers given the environment they were themselves raised in.

A fourth issue goes to what Texas could have done to prevent this sudden trauma and upheaval of the children.

For instance having meetings with all teenagers and letting them know there was life on the outside and a way out when they wanted; and letting the community know they would be monitored regarding future marriages and collective guilt by association.

The bottom line is that I have never seen or heard of taking out a whole community because of child abuse of a few children at the hands of specific individuals. What is going on in your church or neighborhood?

I think this is the crux of the problem right here. From everything that I've been seeing, this group was very evasive when this first happened. They wouldn't give last names, they kept changing their names. They wouldn't give the names of their mothers or fathers. The authorities didn't know who was related to who, and which child came from which family. How could they NOT order DNA testing, and how could they leave any one of the children behind?

I think their hands were tied. They had no other choice.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I think this is the crux of the problem right here. From everything that I've been seeing, this group was very evasive when this first happened. They wouldn't give last names, they kept changing their names. They wouldn't give the names of their mothers or fathers. The authorities didn't know who was related to who, and which child came from which family. How could they NOT order DNA testing, and how could they leave any one of the children behind?

I think their hands were tied. They had no other choice.

No, I don't think so. Would you not claim your own children under such a crisis situation? Do we really think these mothers would not do whatever they could to claim their children? Remember the mothers we saw walking out with their weeping children?

CPS did not want to believe who went with whom, their names and ages so they could do the DNA testing and get evidence of underage births.

Understand Texas now has a vested interest in finding abuse since they have created great trauma for 432 children and they need to save face. IMO

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Newman

No, I don't think so. Would you not claim your own children under such a crisis situation? Do we really think these mothers would not do whatever they could to claim their children? Remember the mothers we saw walking out with their weeping children?

CPS did not want to believe who went with whom, their names and ages so they could do the DNA testing and get evidence of underage births.

Understand Texas now has a vested interest in finding abuse since they have created great trauma for 432 children and they need to save face. IMO

I realize that this is all speculation on your part, as most of the input on this thread is just speculation on my part as well. We're not there, and we don't have the access to any legal documents. Just what is being reported. I like to think that the info that's being released is fairly accurate, and not too far off the mark. Biased, yes, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in knowing the facts.

I saw a handful of mothers walking out with children. We don't know they were their own. I saw Nancy Grace talking about this situation when it first happened and she stated, 'If it were ME, and those were MY children that were torn from me, I would be RIGHT THERE next to where they are keeping them. I would be as close to them as physically possible, not back at the Ranch.'


If I were to put myself in their shoes...I would have to say I would probably have instructions from the leaders to follow in the face of such an event. And I'll bet it would be this:

Give no information.

If I were a part of this group, that knows it's operating around the laws of the land, I would try to be as evasive as possible. I can't admit anything without admitting guilt, so I wouldn't offer up anything at all.

I wouldn't keep accurate birth records that would only give someone else proof in the case of any legal action.

They probably thought this would be a good tactic, only to see it backfire on them and force DNA testing.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I realize that this is all speculation on your part, as most of the input on this thread is just speculation on my part as well. We're not there, and we don't have the access to any legal documents. Just what is being reported. I like to think that the info that's being released is fairly accurate, and not too far off the mark. Biased, yes, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in knowing the facts.

I saw a handful of mothers walking out with children. We don't know they were their own. I saw Nancy Grace talking about this situation when it first happened and she stated, 'If it were ME, and those were MY children that were torn from me, I would be RIGHT THERE next to where they are keeping them. I would be as close to them as physically possible, not back at the Ranch.'


If I were to put myself in their shoes...I would have to say I would probably have instructions from the leaders to follow in the face of such an event. And I'll bet it would be this:

Give no information.

If I were a part of this group, that knows it's operating around the laws of the land, I would try to be as evasive as possible. I can't admit anything without admitting guilt, so I wouldn't offer up anything at all.

I wouldn't keep accurate birth records that would only give someone else proof in the case of any legal action.

They probably thought this would be a good tactic, only to see it backfire on them and force DNA testing.

My personal experience as well as what I have witnessed from others is that these mothers have as much, or more, devotion to their cult leaders than they do their own kids. It is not hard to imagine at all.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I realize that this is all speculation on your part, as most of the input on this thread is just speculation on my part as well. We're not there, and we don't have the access to any legal documents. Just what is being reported. I like to think that the info that's being released is fairly accurate, and not too far off the mark. Biased, yes, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in knowing the facts.

The Mrs- Educated speculation on my part given my legal training in juvenile law (although a different state but sharing some federal mandates in common with all states).

I did find and read two of the affidavits presented to the judge and found them lacking specifics; but for the very detailed phone call (which was a hoax but colored everyone's perception of what was going on).

I also saw a juvenile attorney interviewed by Larry King who is defending five of the mothers. She told Larry King that she heard no evidence in court against the mothers she was representing. I would concur based on what I have read so far.

I would also point out that my most recent court case alleged many facts in the petition that could not be proven at the trial. I was the children's attorney and had no bias whatsoever except to protect the best interest of the kids.

I saw a handful of mothers walking out with children. We don't know they were their own.

Excellent point. But I tend to think it more likely than not that mothers are going to try their best to comfort their children when in serious distress.

I saw Nancy Grace talking about this situation when it first happened and she stated, 'If it were ME, and those were MY children that were torn from me, I would be RIGHT THERE next to where they are keeping them. I would be as close to them as physically possible, not back at the Ranch.'

1. She did not know that the mothers were doing exactly as they were instructed so they could get their children back.

2. This possibility likely escaped her thought process because a)she knew of the 16 year old girl's horrible distress and phone call (before it was known to be a hoax) and b) she was unconciously biased by the women's lifestyle and dress. How could they possibly be real mothers?

If I were to put myself in their shoes...I would have to say I would probably have instructions from the leaders to follow in the face of such an event. And I'll bet it would be this:

Give no information.

If I were a part of this group, that knows it's operating around the laws of the land, I would try to be as evasive as possible. I can't admit anything without admitting guilt, so I wouldn't offer up anything at all.

I wouldn't keep accurate birth records that would only give someone else proof in the case of any legal action.

They probably thought this would be a good tactic, only to see it backfire on them and force DNA testing.

Well, maybe except that I would have expected a significant number of mothers to fold as their children were taken away.

Furthermore, if everyone knew they were breaking the law; I think they might have stockpiled guns, built some walls and been prepared for the day they would come to enforce the law. Maybe?