Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Newman

Pressing On-

1. How many individual cases do you think CPS would have had to prosecute before there were no more marriages to 16 and 17 year old girls?

2. Does it cause you any concern that CPS was told that there was a 16 year old girl being raped and physically abused, who already had one child and was pregnant again... yet they waited a full 3 days to go in.....claiming this particular child was NOT at immediate risk of harm and thus it took them 3 days to respond?

Yet when they go in they end up taking all the children because they are alleged to be in immediate danger because of the parents' beliefs.

3. Is it ok that they probably knew the call they were responding to was a bogus call? There was a tape of the call and the girl wasn't using the right vocabulary? The girl implicated someone known to be in police custody in another state? The call could have been traced to a tower in another state?

4. Did you know the caller changed the name and circumstances implicating a group in another state the next day? CPS from that state investigated as soon as they got it. Did not find the call had merit and did not take all the children in that community away?

5. Is it ok to trample over Constitutional rights so long as its a group of people that we find repugnant?

6. Do you really believe that Apostolics are immune to this type of prosecution in the future based on beliefs by some that women are subservient to men and pastors are authority figures? That homosexuality is wrong and children should not be given birth control? That children can't think for themselves and can't watch TV? That the girls are required to dress differently? That some Apostolics in California may want to opt out of public shools in California given their pro-homosexual agendas?

7. How much power do you want to give to the government over parental control and religous freedom?

DANGER AHEAD.....

I stand on this:

In Texas, it is a felony to have sex with a person younger than 17 if the perpetrator is more than three years older than the teen. Sex with any child younger than 14 is considered aggravated sexual assault.

"Religion appears to play little or no role in the allegations about practices at the Eldorado ranch. No religious belief held by an adult justifies any kind of child abuse. No religious belief allows an adult to have sex with an underage girl. One fear is that any children that you don't remove will be themselves abused, and the other fear is that any children you don't remove will be whisked out of the state, which both puts them at risk potentially and impedes an investigation" " Scott McCown, a former district judge.

Most of these children, like the young babies, there is no evidence whatsoever they were under any threat of being physically or sexually abused. You are removing children because 12 or 14 years down the line, they are gong to be sexually molested.

Leaving the Eldorado ranch families intact was not a viable option. Investigators found clear evidence of a pattern of sexual abuse, including 20 girls who had been impregnated between the ages of 13 and 16 and boys who were being indoctrinated to become adult perpretrators of sexual abuse.

State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville whose district includes Eldorado, speculated that law enforcement and CPS probably had a loose plan in place. Hilderbran remembers talking to CPS officials about the ranch in 2005, when he worked to pass a bill targeted at the sect that raised the legal marriage age with parental consent from 14 to 16. The bill passed.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I stand on this:

In Texas, it is a felony to have sex with a person younger than 17 if the perpetrator is more than three years older than the teen. Sex with any child younger than 14 is considered aggravated sexual assault.

"Religion appears to play little or no role in the allegations about practices at the Eldorado ranch. No religious belief held by an adult justifies any kind of child abuse. No religious belief allows an adult to have sex with an underage girl. One fear is that any children that you don't remove will be themselves abused, and the other fear is that any children you don't remove will be whisked out of the state, which both puts them at risk potentially and impedes an investigation" " Scott McCown, a former district judge.

Most of these children, like the young babies, there is no evidence whatsoever they were under any threat of being physically or sexually abused. You are removing children because 12 or 14 years down the line, they are gong to be sexually molested.

Leaving the Eldorado ranch families intact was not a viable option. Investigators found clear evidence of a pattern of sexual abuse, including 20 girls who had been impregnated between the ages of 13 and 16 and boys who were being indoctrinated to become adult perpretrators of sexual abuse.

State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville whose district includes Eldorado, speculated that law enforcement and CPS probably had a loose plan in place. Hilderbran remembers talking to CPS officials about the ranch in 2005, when he worked to pass a bill targeted at the sect that raised the legal marriage age with parental consent from 14 to 16. The bill passed.

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

But let's traumatize every single one of them anyway. How dare they choose to marry off their daughters at the same age or older than most civlizations had done for thousands of years.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Newman

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

But let's traumatize every single one of them anyway. How dare they choose to marry off their daughters at the same age or older than most civlizations had done for thousands of years.

Thousands of years ago doesn't apply to our law now.

I am on the authorities side on this one.

"Religion appears to play little or no role in the allegations about practices at the Eldorado ranch. No religious belief held by an adult justifies any kind of child abuse. No religious belief allows an adult to have sex with an underage girl. One fear is that any children that you don't remove will be themselves abused, and the other fear is that any children you don't remove will be whisked out of the state, which both puts them at risk potentially and impedes an investigation" " Scott McCown, a former district judge.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Newman

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

Once it was changed, they should have complied.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

So because teenagers are having babies, even as young as 13 or 14, should we legalize sex between adults and minors, and do away with statutory rape laws?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

Wrong question, Newman. If a secular woman allowed her 13 or 14 year old daughter to be married off to a 45 year old man, (or have sex with him), do you think that adult woman should be prosecuted? I do.

These people aren't being prosecuted simply because of teen pregnancies.

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

So they can only prosecute based on who is pregnant right now, and not based on a 16 year old who has a 2-year-old?

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

I don't know, Newman--it seems like quite a few women who have left the FLDS have "tales of horror to tell."

Why would we want to model our laws after ignorance? I'm glad there are laws that prevent old men from marrying little girls. I DO think there is a difference between a 40 year old man marrying a 14 year old girl, than if that same 14 year old girl married a 16 year old boy, or even someone her own age. The dynamics are different. I know you are looking at this from seriously legal angles, but that isn't all there is to it.

[Newman]

MissBrattified-

1. Did the members even know about the change in law?

2. How many INDIVIDUAL prosecutions would have to occur to end any practice of underage marriage in that community?

3. Disgruntled former members? Ha that is something that never gets embellished elsewhere eh?

Read what another former member has to say....

"THESE PEOPLE NEED A VOICE!

I left the FLDS three years ago when I was 23. I had a very happy childhood free from television, drugs, and abuse. These are some of the things I personally witnessed:

When a girl thought she was ready to get married, she would tell her father that she was ready to move on. Her father would turn her over to the prophet (Rulon or Warren Jeffs) to be placed in marriage. I saw Rulon many times tell the girl that she needed to be 18 before she was married, and I saw some girls ask to be married anyway, and sometimes he would give in to their request. It was not a common thing to see a girl younger than 15 get married, but if they did, it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter. No one was ever forced. I saw several girls tell the prophet that she didn't want to marry so and so and that was the end of it (I know this because word really got around). Rulon and Warren always asked a girl if she had anyone in mind before she was placed with someone. Sometimes they would ask for an older guy with several wives already.

You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl. Some were rebellious and wild teenagers sure, but 90% of the girls I grew up with only wanted to get married and have children. At the same time, 90% of the men didn't want their daughters to leave home and were very protective of them. My father wept when my older sister got married (she was 19) but he knew it would make her happy.

As for the men. 95% of the men I knew were honorable and trustworthy. They had beautiful families that loved them and would do anything for them. "by their fruits you shall know them". I challenge anyone to look at those children in Texas and honestly say "they are a product of pedophiles and immorality". An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control. You will not find that with these people. Sex is not even in their vocabulary. Literally.

I personally know every man on that Ranch in Texas. Search the world over, you will not find men more dedicated, more committed, and more focused on living in Peace and living their religion than within that group. They do not care what anyone else does, they only want to live their religion.

You should also note, half of the children raised within the FLDS, end up leaving on their own free will and choice. 95% of them you will never hear from again. 5% seem to spread rumor and false accusations everywhere they turn either because they are lonely and need someone or something to blame, or because they really were hurt or abused and somehow think it's the church's fault."

[google a sentence to get to website as address is very long].

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Newman

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

But let's traumatize every single one of them anyway. How dare they choose to marry off their daughters at the same age or older than most civlizations had done for thousands of years.

You sound like an attorney to cares about the law.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You sound like an attorney to cares about the law.

The law and the children have both suffered great trauma.