Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essential)

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If the thief was saved WITHOUT Jesus then why would anyone need Jesus. IF anyone could have been saved without Jesus before He died then what is the point? The Thief and others were saved and yet not baptized. If they can be saved prior to Jesus coming by some other means then we don't need Jesus.

Can you please quote my comment about the thief being saved without Jesus? Why was the beggar carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom? (Luke 16:22-24) What sent the rich man to a tormenting hell? Who SAVED the beggar from a tormenting hell, Jesus, Buddha, or the Power Rangers?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

God preached the gospel to Abraham
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."

What gospel did God preach, "in you all nations shall be blessed?" Is that the gospel you speak about?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nothing said about a different kind of faith. Nobody was saved under the law BY doing the works of the law.

Praxeas, let me explain again. Romans 10:9 reads we MUST believe God raised Jesus from the dead. This is a REQUIREMENT. This belief wasn't required of the thief, reason being Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from death. It's clearly evident the thief was under the old dispensation, which didn't require water baptism.


What did the sacrificial sin offerings in the Old Testament signify? What did those sacrifices accomplish?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You will note the verse you quoted does not mention baptism but believing. Had the thief NOT died he would have had to be baptized in obedience to the word. .

Your honor, I object to that comment, due to pure speculation! Praxeas, the judge will find you contemp for speculation.

The fact is this thief could have been baptized under the baptism of John (that point is still mute) and been a backslider. Your comment about the thief being baptized if he hadn't died is pure speculation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That does not prove anyone can be saved and not be baptized. Baptism is a biblical command.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As I said before, everyone needs to be baptized, but there are exceptions.

You see that? You just contradicted yourself with both comments above! You said "baptism is a biblical command" and "everyone NEEDS to be baptized," but there's exceptions?

If baptism is biblical as you stated above, then not obeying this command is violating God's own command! Would God violate His own law Praxeas?


Let me share a few scriptures with you:

"if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21.


"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His
commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3.

"And this is love, that we walk after His commandments," 2 John 6.


We must keep God's commandments if we love him, which includes baptism as you plainly stated, thanks!

By the way, there was not exceptions with the thief. Jesus forgave the thief before He died. The thief was under the old dispensation which didn't require baptism, but blood atonement.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Once again I never said baptism is not essential for salvation. Second, how was the thief saved? Who saved him and why?.

God required animal sacrifices that man could receive forgiveness for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). Jesus, our High Priest and Lamb, after forgiving the thief, transferred his sins, and the sins of mankind upon himself. Then Jesus was crucified (e.g., sacrificed) on a cross.

Jesus was the final OLD TESTAMENT sin sacrifice. The thief was saved under this action. Also, notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus, "remember me......in thy kingdom." He confirmed Jesus was a king and had a kingdom. Beautiful, ehh?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is the HOLY Spirit. These gentiles did not have their sins forgiven and acts 2:38 if we are going to be literalists and absolutists then we must repent and be baptized before being filled with the Spirit. But God clearly chose fit to make an exception to that.us.

These gentiles did receive the Holy Ghost, but, they still obeyed the 3 step process. Where is your argument here? They obeyed the 3 step process!
I challenge you to show me different!

Originally Posted by Praxeas

When you get baptized for forgiveness of sins you might still need to have your sins forgiven after that. Baptism is a one time thing. But it's the continued presence of the Spirit after that saves us right?.

Aren't we a new creature after baptism? Are will still under condemnation after baptism? Aren't we dead to the flesh and alive in the spirit?

Have you studied these scriptures and their significance to believers?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I have to ask what about those that receive the Spirit and speak in tongues in the Trinitarian churches? Did they receive the Holy Spirit or not? What did they receive? And yet all this time so many of them are still sin stained...their souls presumably in darkness even though the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them? Or what is it? What do they have?

Praxeas, remember the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by Beelzebub the prince of the devils? Jesus responded a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. It's evident one must posses the spirit of God to cast out demons. What happens when you try casting out demons without the spirit of God? Remember the seven sons of Sceva?


Now that I've laid the foundation, I'll explain.

Matt 7 reads

22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Now, these people that cast out devils or performed miracles were Holy Ghost filled, I proved it above. Now I ask you the same question you asked me, isn't the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them, leading them into truth? How can God tell Holy Ghost filled folks He never knew them?

Trinitarians may possess the Holy Ghost and still be workers of iniquity! Why, because their doctrine is false! When one violates the word of God, they're a worker on iniquity (see the Greek). The reason God grants their miracles is because He's faithful to His word.

So yes, they have the Holy Ghost. Many are called, few are chosen! Works always follows faith!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Can you please quote my comment about the thief being saved without Jesus?

It was based on this post of yours

The faith required for salvation of the NEW COVENANT believers wasn't required for the thief. Romans 10:9 reads we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead. The thief couldn't have believed this, seeing Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from the dead.

Even if I was a one-stepper, I would have to admit the thief's salvation is completely different from mine. I must believe God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), this wasn't a requirement for the thief.

Why was the beggar carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom? (Luke 16:22-24) What sent the rich man to a tormenting hell? Who SAVED the beggar from a tormenting hell, Jesus, Buddha, or the Power Rangers?

This is again MY point actually...it was JESUS that saves...Nobody in the OT or the NT can be saved by anyone other than Jesus and it is FAITH in Jesus. How was the thief saved though? Good works? Keeping the law?

What gospel did God preach, "in you all nations shall be blessed?" Is that the gospel you speak about?

I was quoting the bible. If you have a problem with that then your problem is not with me but with the word. You added a smiley face to indicate mockery and a lack of sincerity in this discussion. That bothers me since I was only quoting the word.

Should we treat the word of God as a competition?

This is Paul speaking, not me
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."

Praxeas, let me explain again. Romans 10:9 reads we MUST believe God raised Jesus from the dead. This is a REQUIREMENT. This belief wasn't required of the thief, reason being Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from death. It's clearly evident the thief was under the old dispensation, which didn't require water baptism.

It WAS a requirement because ALL Jews believed in a LIVING messiah not a dead one.

This is what David said
Psa 16:8 I have set Jehovah always before Me; because He is at My right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore My heart is glad, and My glory rejoices; My flesh also shall rest in hope;
Psa 16:10 For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David speaks concerning Him, "I foresaw the Lord always before me, because He is at my right hand, that I should not be moved.
Act 2:26 Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue was glad; and also My flesh shall rest in hope,
Act 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption.

From the very first book of the bible this was a Truth...
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

True believers always believed in a Messiah that lives, not a Messiah that is dead. Even Peter lost faith at one point when Jesus died not understanding what the scriptures said. Jesus corrected their faith
Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
The bible says God does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. There are not a dozen different ways to be saved. God does not change. It was always by faith and by the Blood of Jesus. That again does not mean we can disobey God. True believers OBEY God.

What did the sacrificial sin offerings in the Old Testament signify? What did those sacrifices accomplish?

Are you asking because you don't know?
I recommend reading all of Hebrews. Read especially ALL of chapter 10....here is an excerpt
Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Heb 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The purpose of the Law was to lead to Christ. Paul says in Galatian that it was our school master

In Romans Paul says ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift Rom 3:20-24...even Abraham is said to have been justified by faith. Yet he believed and obeyed. It was His believing God that justified him though....not a covenant of laws. We are a part of the original covenant of Abraham. I already posted those verses

The fact is this thief could have been baptized under the baptism of John (that point is still mute) and been a backslider. Your comment about the thief being baptized if he hadn't died is pure speculation.

Yes that point IS mute since John's baptism never saved anyone either. My comment about the thief being baptized IF he did not die is speculation? You are arguing that everyone has to be baptized absolutely to be saved and here I say that if the thief did not die he would still have to obey the command to be baptized in Jesus name is speculation?

You see that? You just contradicted yourself with both comments above! You said "baptism is a biblical command" and "everyone NEEDS to be baptized," but there's exceptions?

how is it a contradiction? yes everyone NEEDS to be baptized. If the thief did not die then he would still have needed to obey the word. Obeying the word is necessary for those that are living and wanting to be saved. Obedience though comes from the HEART.

[Praxeas]

If baptism is biblical as you stated above, then not obeying this command is violating God's own command! Would God violate His own law Praxeas?

A person that dies before getting the chance to be baptized is NOT being disobedient. DISOBEDIENCE is a willful act. It is not the act of someone that has faith. If you were told to go do something and someone else kept you from doing that, that does not mean you were disobeying. If you were going to do it that means you are obedient.

Let me share a few scriptures with you:

"if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21.

I never said we can disobey so you are just

"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His
commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3.

Once again I never said we can be disobedient. This all proves though that you put more emphasis on the act than on the heart faith. Works are things WE think WE can do to save our selves. Obedience is from the heart though of faith. Works are people without faith trying to save themselves. Abraham obeyed God from the heart, because he was a man of faith. It was not his acts that saved him but the condition of the heart.

Read Romans 4 please, here are some excerpts

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Noticed Abraham was counted righteous even before he obeyed God. If he disobeyed (a willful act) then he would not have been righteous and not only that according to their agreement anyone that did not obey circumcision was cut off. But obedience and disobedience are from the heart.

You have to WILLFULLY not do what you are told. If I keep you from doing what you are told that does not make you disobedience. In this is the difference between an actual WORK and OBEDIENCE from the heart. And in this is where legalists fail by putting emphasis on the actual dead and not on the faith.

And in this is baptism OUR covenant sign or circumcision. Remission of sins, circumcision of the heart is God's job. He does it. That is part of the covenant HE keeps. Our part is to have faith, repent, be baptized and to continue in His word as obedient children from the heart

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
.

We must keep God's commandments if we love him, which includes baptism as you plainly stated, thanks!

You are welcome...that IS what I plainly stated, but I don't think you understood it. Maybe you are just intent on arguing so much that you are not getting my point?

By the way, there was not exceptions with the thief. Jesus forgave the thief before He died. The thief was under the old dispensation which didn't require baptism, but blood atonement.

First of all in the OT they DID baptise. Second WHY did Jesus forgive him? What was the basis? Third the OLD COVENANT or the law of Moses never saved anyone.

God required animal sacrifices that man could receive forgiveness for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). Jesus, our High Priest and Lamb, after forgiving the thief, transferred his sins, and the sins of mankind upon himself. Then Jesus was crucified (e.g., sacrificed) on a cross.

Please read Hebrews. Those animals were NOT sufficient to cleans anyone of all their sins. There was a constant reminder and constant need to make those sacrifices that NEVER made anyone perfect. IF this was the case Jesus would not have needed to forgive the thief as you said.

Jesus was the final OLD TESTAMENT sin sacrifice. The thief was saved under this action. Also, notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus, "remember me......in thy kingdom." He confirmed Jesus was a king and had a kingdom. Beautiful, ehh?

The thief was not saved BY the law. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. The law did NOT save the thief. Jesus did.

BTW you said "also notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus "remember me...in thy kingdom"...eh? Yeah even more beautiful since I already mentioned this to you to show that the thief believed Jesus would not be left dead like David said in the grave but be resurrected from the grave.

These gentiles did receive the Holy Ghost, but, they still obeyed the 3 step process. Where is your argument here? They obeyed the 3 step process!
I challenge you to show me different!

Clearly you are not getting the point. I was the one that SAID they obeyed all three. Please take time to stop debating for the sake of entertainment and read what I said. My point I explicitly laid out verbatim so asking me what my argument makes me think you are not taking this seriously. They did Acts 2:38 in REVERSE of how Peter said it was to be. This proves everything is not absolute literal as you expect it to be. If it was then EVERYONE should be baptized before receiving the Spirit. That was an exception. That was the point. The second point is the bible says God can not dwell with sin right? So these were sinners being filled with the Spirit of God...and they were STILL sinners while having the Spirit of God, speaking in tongues until they were baptized.

Aren't we a new creature after baptism? Are will still under condemnation after baptism? Aren't we dead to the flesh and alive in the spirit?

I thought it was the Spirit that made us new creatures....are you saying that when someone is baptized they receive the Spirit instantly?

Praxeas, remember the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by Beelzebub the prince of the devils? Jesus responded a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. It's evident one must posses the spirit of God to cast out demons. What happens when you try casting out demons without the spirit of God? Remember the seven sons of Sceva?

Now that I've laid the foundation, I'll explain.

Matt 7 reads

22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now, these people that cast out devils or performed miracles were Holy Ghost filled, I proved it above. Now I ask you the same question you asked me, isn't the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them, leading them into truth? How can God tell Holy Ghost filled folks He never knew them?

Trinitarians may possess the Holy Ghost and still be workers of iniquity! Why, because their doctrine is false! When one violates the word of God, they're a worker on iniquity (see the Greek). The reason God grants their miracles is because He's faithful to His word.

So yes, they have the Holy Ghost. Many are called, few are chosen! Works always follows faith!

Were the Apostles baptized in the Holy Spirit before Pentecost?

Are you agreeing then that God is filling millions of sinners with the Spirit of God having never had their sins forgiven in the first place? And that they still have the Spirit in them even though they are rank sinners...full of sin?